Let's talk Cuckoo and WHITE marans... breeding strategies...

[geebs]

There was some talk on the marans general question thread and SNOWBIRD suggested we have a thread dedicated to just this color... I say good show.... Fabulous Idea! I know very little about breeding strategies of these color... I started with it but am just opening the door.

I currently have a quad of bantam cuckoo and a couple dwarfed bantam sized black copper hens. I have had the hens for nearly 3 years and have produced from time to time small offspring so I thought it prudent to use what I have with what someone else had so I obtained a quad of Cuckoo "bantam". These are not true bantam as they exceed the french standard for wieght both the cock and hen. Also the barred birds have no leg feathering. I am hoping by learning on this thread about this color to be able to incorporate the knowledge. My BC's are positive for partridge which may also house Columbian, so this thread with the cuckoo may be able to help bring this forward.

I have no whites but am interested to learn from those who do... Please post about them here on this thread.

 

[TNBEARCHICK]

So much info so little time, I am a perfectionist with a hint or more of ocd tendencies but I will get there.

 

[xlboergoats]

Best of Luck to you at the show!

Thanks for the well wishes. It was a great show put on by a great group of people. We always enjoy the Bluebonnet Classic. We got home too late last night to post results. We haul our birds in an enclosed trailer with show coops mounted to the walls. Last night when we got home, the chickens at home and on the trailer were already asleep. I decided to let them sleep until this morning rather than wake up the neighborhood unloading chickens.

Peggy Taylor from Huntington, Texas had the Best of Variety Cuckoo with a beautiful hen and April Howington from Burkette, Texas had the Reserve Best of Variety Cuckoo with a nice pullet.

In the Whites, I had the Best of Variety with a pullet and Ms.Dot, my Mom, had the Reserve Best of Variety with a pullet. I think that there were 22 White Marans at the show exhibited by 4 different exhibitors. While we feel blessed to have BV and RV in the same family, it can make for a long ride home. After a three hour drive home and a good night's sleep, Mom was back to happy self today.

Regards,
Ernie Haire
Arp, Texas
www.Marans2XL.com

 

[OHmamma]

We don't keep Cuckoo males with White tail feathers. We try to work toward the goal of breeding it out of our Cuckoos. I am sure that the issue will come up in Newnan again.

Regards,
Ernie Haire

The hard thing about breeding it out is that some may not develop it until well into their second year, by then how many have been hatched? I would stay away from young cockerels with them but Older Cock birds are just going to be prone to them more often than not especially after a molt or trauma to the follicle. I have never had issues with it in my cuckoo roos. I have seen it with the Blue Copper.

The standard for the Cuckoo Marans is going to be the same as it is for other breeds that are cuckoo in color. The DQ's and faults will remain the same as they are for any other breed. The same breeders are not breeding the cuckoo that helped with the other two approved varieties. The committee is taking it much slower and anyone in the Newnan GA area is more than welcome to come to the pre-qualifying meet that is planned there. MCCOA members are also welcome to the demonstration that will be given specifically for the cuckoo type color and expectations.

As someone that has been breeding cuckoo for several years, I believe that there will be a variation in the colors of the cuckoos it will likely be more noticeable in the Roosters. This is mainly because the cuckoo have been around and bred for quite some time and there are many lines to work with. Some have black bred into them, others blue, birchen, and some even white and once they are all together it will be far more noticeable than a photograph can really show. I am worried that real silver cuckoo or single bar males will be shown as standard cuckoo as well. That is why the pre- qualifying meet was planned so that all of the breeders can have a better idea on where they stand.

As for the goldens with white tails it is pretty much the same thing. It has a lot to do with the bird, his barring genetics, and possibly the feather growth rate. The gc should be a cross of cuckoo x black copper (not wheaten). They should have dark barring on the body and gold in the hackles and pyle. Neither should have excessive white in the body.

A Silver Cuckoo will have bright silver in his hackle and pyle causing it to look nearly white, and his main body will have darker barring. The hens should have noticeable silver highlights in their hackle as well. Neither should have too much white in the body.

-Nicol

 

[OHmamma]

OK So we love some cuckoo here.

I would like to see them APA approved someday....

There are far more breeders on here so if anyone is interested lets get to work.

First what anyone interested in showing their Cuckoo Marans at APA shows needs to know is the basic genetics of a barred bird. Please understand that this is information I have collected from many poultry books and from many many online sites and from my own experience. I by no means claim to be the authority on Cuckoo Marans but I am just wanting to share what I have found. There are many beautiful Cuckoo Marans that are not up to these standards who's owners believe that they are perfect just way they are. I have a few myself. I am not trying to get anyone to toss out what they have or influence anyone to do something they do not wish to do. I am only trying to share information. This is just pertaining to the color of the bird not type since it will remain the same as the APA approved varieties of Marans.
(see http://www.maranschickenclubusa.com/StandardofPerfection.html )

(feel free to add to or question any of this) Taken from http://frenchmaransclubaustralia.yolasite.com/notes-on-breeding.php

Cuckoo birds are Black, E/E (or occasionally Birchen, ER/ER) based in the Marans, the genotype is completed by the addition of the sex-linked dominant barring gene (B), this
replaces the black plumage with the irregular Cuckoo pattern, as we know it in the Marans.
Another sex linked dominant gene (S) silver intensifies the silver-white contrast in the plumage of the hackle, back, shoulders, and lancets. In this way, the Cuckoo (B) colour factor expressed itself on each of the two (B/B) chromosomes present in the cock, and has a cumulative effect, doubling the expression giving a lighter shade to the cock’s feathers.
On the other hand, in the Cuckoo hen, the (B) factor is hemizygous expressed on only one allele, the second remaining unexpressed. Thus the hen plumage is a darker Cuckoo (B/b). The homozygous Cuckoo male has a genotype of E/E S/S Ml/Ml B/B Id/Id W/W Pti-1/Pti-1, and the hemizygous hens one of E/E S/- Ml/Ml B/- Id/-d W/W Pti-1/Pti-1. In addition to the cumulative plumage lighting effect, cuckoo/barring also removes pigment from the shank and beak, and these are lighter in the cock.


OR as taken from Kipen...

Feather color genes often display a ‘dosing’ effect: “Two genes are stronger than one.” For example, since the locus of the sex-linked barring gene is on the Z sex chromosome, females that have Cuckoo or sex-linked barring (the barring that Barred Rocks have) can have only one barring gene and have barring that is less well defined than the barring of males that have two barring genes.

As we know you can get the barring effect in ANY color but to get correct and Standard Cuckoo Marans we need to be breeding for BLACK BASED birds. It causes a much more even effect and will produce the correct color in both the cock and the hen.

Here are some nice correctly colored hen photos taken from http://maranklub.dk/galleri/dvaerg-maran-grastribet



Correct Cock birds are much harder to find. (As most of us know) They should not have white in the tail but I am mainly showing these for their color especially note the Hackles and pyle, it should not be brighter than the body. The barring is sometimes wider in the white areas which will cause them to look lighter. This is not correct. The barring should be uniform throughout the entire length of the chicken. Photos taken from Feathersite, and maranklub.dk






Cuckoo that are Birchen based as in a cross with a Black Copper are not correct. They are still cuckoo, but to be Standard Cuckoo they need to be the Black based.

There is also the issue with Single Bar Roosters. This is when the cockerel is only carrying ONE barring gene. He could be half black (E/E) or half Birchen (E/ER) these roos are often quite stunning but their barring will blurr along the bottom of the body and their pyle will be brighter. Causing a noticeable contrast in the bird.

These are from my own photos..





Hens that are half cuckoo from the same cross will be solid black.

again my own photo...




Single bar birds are not always bad. They can be very valuable tools if you are trying to improve the overall color of your flock, improve egg color, shank feathers, eye color etc. The Single Bar roosters will throw 25% DF males (double factor for barred) 25% single barred males 25% cuckoo female and 25% black females.

The issues with using DF males is separating the doubles form the singles. It can be done at a fairly young age, one thing that is noticeable right away is an uneven barring in the primary wing feathers.





again my photos of a single bar cockerel at a few days and about 6 weeks. He is Cuckoo x Black






Should I go on?

-Nicol

 

[OHmamma]

So how do we get ours over here to look like this? Mine already are way lighter and they're only like 10 or 12 weeks old. Do we breed back to BCM?? BTW Thanks for your comments on my birds a few pages back, I really appreciate it!

From what I can understand off the French forum it would go like this...

1st mating (F1).....Black Copper X Cuckoo you will get single bar roos and black pullets. Ditch the black pullets

2nd Mating (F2)...SB Cockerel x Black Copper female. you will get an assortment ; Cuckoo, Blacks, Birchen (cream), Er Cuckoo (cream), which you cull and Er Cuckoo (golden) which you keep.

3rd mating (F3)....Use the Golden Cuckoo (F2) cockerels and pullets. These will produce SB (single bar) dark cuckoo males (which should be culled) and both golden and reddish Cuckoo cockerels and pullets.

4th mating (F4)...use the reddish or golden, light cuckoo males and the reddish or golden barred females from the F3 mating. These will breed true now.

I think the biggest problem is having the patience to wait until you get the DF (double barring factor males) another issue would be whether you prefer the reddish color or the true golden color.

 

[DMRippy]

Whites have been admitted to the APA!!!!!!!

 

[snowbird]

Does anyone have a link to the APA scorecard, and are there different scorecards for different types?? I have the SOP for White Marans and Black Copper Marans, but would like to put that information in perspective with its importance to showing. The SOP for each variety with disqualifications and with the point value for each attribute down the list) would be AWESOME. Mahalo in advance!

The best advice I can give is go to the front of the SOP and you will find all this in the first 40 or so pages. Don

Look on page #39 of the 2001 SOP.

 

[ladycat]

Hi,
I was reading this book again last night. One of my favs!
Laws governing the breeding of standard fowls. c.1
( with linebreeding chart)
By Card, Wetherell Henry. Published 1912
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=chi.087299559;view=1up;seq=5
Anyway the author states that side springs show an indication of
rose comb blood. Don't the Pendescendas (sp?) have a rose comb?
Just wondering.
Best Success,
Karen

FYI that book can be downloaded in the readers choice of format here:
https://archive.org/details/cu31924003158312

I've downloaded dozens of fantastic and valuable chicken books from the Internet Archives. There are hundreds of poultry titles available there.

 

[kfelton0002]

Pics of the black copper eggs I havw in lockdown now. These pics were taken before I set them.