Lost my lady last nigt, Now garlic hypervigilant

[Scorpiochick]

Hi all,


So bummed that I lost my sweet Barred Rock Softie last night due to dam worms. I feel awful it was so preventable. OK so here are my main questions, with this recipe
http://tomatotales.com.au/chicken-worming-the-organic-and-low-cost-treatment/

1. At what age can Chicks/Chickens safely go on this?
2. if you do this do you Stop the apple cider vinegar in the water completely?
3. If you do this do you stop adding garlic powder into their main food source? I just dint want to overload them either.

Thanks everyone, Lisa

 

[chooks4life]

Sorry for your loss.

I have a few questions. What sort of worms were they? Have you been using anything for worming asides from garlic?

Garlic's great, I use it myself as I think you already know, but some worms have lifecycles that can sidestep sulfur toxicity just by how fast they cycle. I.e. barberpole worm in sheep. By the time the worm may be experiencing sickness from sulfur buildup it could have killed the sheep, sometimes all they take is 24 hours.

While garlic via the sulfur levels is my main defense against parasites I also use other things too, as a regular additive they get black pepper and cayenne and often curry and sage etc, for numerous health benefits not just anti parasite activity. Sometimes with new chooks this would shift large worms, and by shift I mean expel dead or dying worms, but none of mine ever had worm problems so I must assume my treatment was working.

Sometimes I even give them wormwood if I think an animal may need it, but the 'big guns' like that potentially dangerous herb tend to only come out on stock I've just brought onto the property, none of mine have ever required it. I have added very little amounts to their food on and off, mainly for the turkeys' health though as wormwood is helpful to them specifically, it's antiviral and anti most things turkeys tend to suffer from.

The diet mentioned in that link sounds pretty standard and I've fed those ingredients separately and together to chicks from hatching onwards, with no problems. Chooks love hot stuff, if there aren't hot plants growing nearby that they can use to self worm then you should supply it in their feed. I'd also feed them cayenne or tabasco sauce on wholemeal bread before the full moon just in case, pretty regularly. Also the ground needs tending if you don't already do that, things like ash and hydrated agricultural lime can help destroy parasite burdens and pathogens lingering in the soil.

You probably wouldn't need to stop ACV in the water, though I reckon it's a good idea to always have fresh water on hand too, though mine seem to only use it as a backup and given the choice all my animals prefer ACV water over plain.

About the garlic, I don't know how much you're adding to their feed but even a temporary overdose won't kill them, they would just feel nauseous, and sulfur is quite a strong smell so if they smell or taste more than their bodies can handle in the feed, they won't eat it. Humans who hate eggs generally have poorly livers and are avoiding the excess sulfur by smell, as sulfur can be hard on bad livers.

If they're not already sick on your current dose of garlic that extra few cloves should not hurt. You would need to forcefeed them for a long time or make it all they can eat for quite a while before they'd overdose on sulfur.

Best wishes.

 

[Scorpiochick]

Thanks so much So much great info in all that. I have made the Worming mix and fed it to them on the 30th. Everyone but the month old babies that are still inside got that. Should I offer them as well. They are still in the pool in the house and 4 weeks, still on chick starter,so i dont know. I had NO idea that chickens actually like hot stuff, I learned so much from your post. So if I were to offer lie jalapenos for snacks one day that would be just fine? One more thing this is now like the 3rd thing I have read about the Moon and feeding them certain ways, can someone drop a link or just a quick explanation,I just want my birds to be healthy...it stinks I learned all this AFTER the loss of my lady but can help protect all my birds I have now. all I can say is I love this site so much Happy 4th of July everyone! #BYC

 

[chooks4life]

Thanks so much So much great info in all that. I have made the Worming mix and fed it to them on the 30th. Everyone but the month old babies that are still inside got that. Should I offer them as well. They are still in the pool in the house and 4 weeks, still on chick starter,so i dont know.

It shouldn't hurt them and they too need antiparasitic precautions. I give mine the same hot things as the adults, free choice as with the adults, and haven't seen any difference between juvenile or adult interest in hot foods.

I had NO idea that chickens actually like hot stuff, I learned so much from your post. So if I were to offer lie jalapenos for snacks one day that would be just fine?

Some people have, seems fine. I might cut them up for them though. Maybe I'm being overcautious but I don't like the idea of a chook struggling to break a small piece of very hot stuff off of a larger piece and maybe getting the juices in its eyes during the struggle. Some chooks are clumsy, lol. I do the same with the tabasco bread, I break or cut it into many small pieces so they just swallow them, not wrestle with it and get it everywhere. Jalapenos can be hard for chooks to dissect so I'd help them either way.

One more thing this is now like the 3rd thing I have read about the Moon and feeding them certain ways, can someone drop a link or just a quick explanation,I just want my birds to be healthy...it stinks I learned all this AFTER the loss of my lady but can help protect all my birds I have now. all I can say is I love this site so much Happy 4th of July everyone! #BYC

Parasite lifecycles vary quite widely between species of parasite and their hosts; worming at any time will generally help get some, of some species. The full moon is just a time of higher likelihood of killing them if you worm then, it's recommendable for that reason. All species have circadian and circalunar rhythms as far as we know, though we're still learning about them.

I found some pubmed articles on circalunar rhythms specifically in worms, but they're more focused on marine worms because human/animal parasites of the domestic and non-exotic kind do not appear to be a subject most scientists want to spend any time of day on, lol. I'm not being snarky there, it's an actual problem recognized in the medical and scientific communities. Most of the experts on worms and parasites don't want to work with intestinal parasites unless they're recently discovered ones especially in non-domestic species of hosts. However if you dig for long enough you'll find circalunar info on most species observed in enough detail for long enough.

Even those who don't use natural therapies, but use conventional chemicals, often espouse the full moon period for worming as otherwise the parasites are killed in the organs and outside of direct eliminatory channels like the bowels, so their bodies rot inside the animal you've wormed and can cause sepsis and kill them, or just make them very sick. Most parasites don't tend to actually live in the bowels, they move there temporarily during that moon phase usually in order to complete their reproductive cycle. Some sources say conventional chemical worming is often useless outside the full moon phase. I reckon if you poison the animal badly enough chances are the worms will die too, but obviously I prefer less harmful methods, and worming during the full moon is one of them.

The moon is part of our lives in more ways than science has yet properly documented, beyond the obvious (being that we are mostly water and the moon exerts a gravitational pull on that, and like the sun and the earth it has an electromagnetic field and frequencies) but it's accepted in many places due to the self-evident nature of processes affected by the moon phase. I've experimented with this for years until I've come to accept it, at no point am I suggesting you blindly accept the anecdotes, no matter how numerous. I cut my hair according to the moon cycle now, have done for years, because the results are that reliable... Also I won't prune or harvest from some plants during the waning moon as not all plants are able to cope with it. Some plants will literally put on the brakes and refuse to advance beyond that stage.

Though science has been pretty tardy in finding out the 'why' there's a plethora of info from pretty much every source regarding changes observed around the full moon; it's known to cause spikes in insomnia and various health issues, human crime and animal violence, reproduction in most species, plant growth or lack thereof, and obviously the ocean tides are some very clear examples of the moons' influence on earth, and pretty much everything alive has been shown to have some difference in behavior or biology around the full moon, if it's been studied enough.

With juniper trees of a certain species (one used for pharmaceutical purposes), the chemical composition in its leaves, containing thousands of yet-to-be documented compounds, varies wildly according to the moon cycle and material for treatment is harvested according to the cycle for use with certain health issues.

The same thing is recorded with various other plants, especially medicinal ones, which has made me reconsider the old 'witches up the tree on the full moon harvesting mistletoe' legend. A lot of women killed for being witches were just herbalists and mistletoe like most or probably all plants has some compound/biochemical variation in relation to the moon cycle, which I think makes all the more sense given that some mistletoes are pollinated by bats and are night flowering, and bats are known to change activity according to the moon cycle as well. Animals can smell the compounds in herbs etc and most herbal knowledge we have passed down from our ancestors is actually due to humans observing animals and how the animals self-medicated for various ailments.

There aren't enough studies on it really, but everyone, just about, knows a cop who will confirm waxing moon/pre-full moon times are busier crimewise. Sometimes they put it down to the extra light, but often also down to the criminals being unable to sleep. The old 'luna-tick' belief was based in part on people whose mental issues became worse around the full moon. Many humans infected with parasites experience frenzied activity around the full moon and some of the symptoms most commonly caused by intestinal worms are mental issues including some serious ones i.e. seizures, confusion, hallucinations, visual issues, and basically various types of insanity/derangement. The chemicals many worms release toxify us and cause immune system weakness and long term damage. Some animals (and people) are actually as nasty as they are because they're worm-ridden. Worm them and they turn into regular rays of sunshine. :/

I personally know I can't sleep through most full moons, it's hopeless, and I know a few families who regularly have spikes in disharmony, or more to the point blazing rows, every waxing moon, as reliable as werewolves. I know my dogs and cats always responded to the full moon too... You get that drive to just move, so I often walk during full moons. Certainly I won't be able to sleep.

Many people who are infected report worsening parasite activity around the full moon, even before they were aware of that old belief, but, parasites are best treated regularly and it's just a much better chance you'll get them around the full moon, is all, as they generally move into the intestines around that time. Treatment also visually appears more successful around that time just because you see the bodies shed, whereas treatment at any other time can still get at least some of them but will leave their bodies rotting inside the animal (or human). They particularly love unhealthy animals and humans, especially those on high-sugar, acidic diets of over-processed foods.

For some of the nastiest you should treat immediately no matter what the moon cycle may be, generally if there's any symptoms assume there is a problem, but of course many people don't see symptoms in time or there may be no symptoms at all.

On this note, some sources estimate up to 70% of people are infected with parasites, and if you've never wormed yourself comprehensively, you really ought to. Some parasites i.e. some tapeworm can live for decades in the host and produce no symptoms, but one human-infecting species is known to deny the human at least 80% of all B12 present which makes them a high cancer risk among many other serious issues.

I worm myself regularly because I live with children and animals, and both of those are some of the main vectors of infection in adult humans who otherwise practice normal/good hygiene. Sushi is another, and pork, in terms of statistical likelihood of infection. Kids come home from school and infect every doorknob in the building with all the worm eggs they picked up from their schoolmates. If you've never looked into the massive array of sometimes fatal and often debilitating diseases worms and other parasites cause humans, you really ought to. Actually I'm currently in the process of eliminating another worm outbreak here, of the sort that affects humans, because some of the people I live with are quite unhygienic and their health is suffering for it. I'm doing fine, but that's because as with my animals I maintain a natural anti parasite regimen more often than not.

With coral in the sea as well as similar creatures on land the waxing moon is their preferred time to shed eggs, and the same is true of many plants. National Geographic has documented some of this. If you plant seeds as the moon waxes (heads towards being full) they grow faster and better than those planted when the moon is waning. Same for haircuts, etc. The waning moon is the time to prune things. Sounds like an old wives' tales perhaps, I thought it was to begin with myself. It's not for superstitions' sake that home and garden magazines usually include 'moon planting' schedules. All life on earth is affected both by the sun and the moon.

I did a search for info and here's some results... There were plenty more, but I think you'll find the best info in Biology books probably. I haven't checked all the links, but you can view them at your leisure and judge them accordingly. Some of the sites won't be as relevant as others, no doubt. It's another one of those hot topics like garlic... You'll find some who claim it's 'voodoo' or old wives' tales and some who claim otherwise, and you'll find both scientists/doctors/respected professionals on both sides of the debate, lol.

Anyway, some pubmed ones and some randoms, linked below. Pubmed isn't a totally authoritative voice either, you can find many studies pro or anti anything on that site, pretty much. Many of their studies are quite irrelevant for our circumstances but you'll still see pubmed articles quoted pro or anti anything. Best to test for yourself I reckon. Easily done with wormy stock around a full moon.
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3913041/

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The pubmed ones are probably what you're after, but the others contain some herb info for worming as well, or other useful info.


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Best wishes.

 

[Scorpiochick]

Well after talking with a neighbor today, He also has backyard chickens, I told him everything that happened, He said it sounded like an egg broke inside of her. I NEVER knew that could happen either! when she was sick for those few days I did say she had BAD pasty butt, and that it was yellow. he was like Yep that's what it was. I don't know I'm sure I never will. He said there is absolutely NOTHING you can do about that. Like I said it just sucks, she was a funny Hen, by far our best layer and never picked on anyone. I would definitely get a barred rock again. Again she had been sick for several days, Pale comb, flopped over too. Weight loss, and wasn't eating. Anyway I will just keep doing the new things I have learned and know I have done my best. Thanks again.

 

[chooks4life]

You're very welcome.

I also had a hen have an egg broken inside her, she hemorrhaged and suffered quite a bit and died in a few hours. I would expect if an egg broke inside your hen she would have showed a lot of distress. It's possible that might not happen though. There's a lot of things that can cause the same symptoms, no matter how experienced you get you'll always learn something new.

ETA: Just recalled, sometimes some experienced old timers would actually deliberately break the egg inside an egg bound hen if all attempts to remove the bound egg had failed. They'd then remove it bit by bit. Obviously not a simple and safe operation, that one. Sometimes vets can help with an internally broken egg but generally hemorrhage and death is the rule, or hemorrhage, infection and death.

Best wishes with them.

 

[Fancychooklady]

You will never know, sorry for your loss. Vent gleet is also similar in symptoms . Here are some interesting facts on garlic.

http://www.the-chicken-chick.com/2014/05/raising-chickens-naturally-garlic-with.html

And this on vent gleet.

http://birdhealth.com.au/flockbirds/poultry/diseases/vent_gleet.html

 

[Fancychooklady]

I have lost one hen to eggbinding . Low calcium levels are often the cause, I suspect it was the problem with my hen.

http://www.the-chicken-chick.com/2012/07/chicken-egg-binding-causes-symptoms.html

 

[chooks4life]

Unfortunately 'the chicken chick' in large part relies on so-called 'expert herbalist' Susan Burek, whose information is partly incorrect, partly blatantly untrue, and quite skewed, and whose very own website shows animals in a poor state of health raised by her methods. (I did a websearch on her as per one poster's suggestion and found her website, showing various species in a sub par state of health, not one truly healthy-looking individual).

To hear her tell it, she discovered and pioneered herbal medicine. Astonishing claims, really; how many thousands of years old is she?!

It would be patently unwise to rely on that source. Here's a previous topic where we went over this. It has many helpful links though, on garlic etc, so should be educational.

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Best wishes.

 

[chooks4life]

That J.d.B.Levy book I referred to claimed raw oils, like cold pressed olive oil, would prevent egg binding. I tested that theory on mine from the very start of having chooks onwards, and have never had a single case of egg binding, so I believe it's true.

When only cooked oils are supplied, i.e. those in pellets, often being artificial/harmful ones like mineral oil and vegetable oil or overprocessed and heat treated oils of any type (except coconut, basically), the mucosal membranes of the body including the laying tract become inflexible and stiffen and the animal is at great risk of egg binding and other similar issues.

Something very analogous occurs to the cardiovascular system in the absence of raw healthy oils. They are essential for true health and longevity. I expect chickens in their wild state would have received these raw oils from insects, fruits, and so forth, but obviously we have to make do. I've seen chickens so desperate for oils they drink anything vaguely oily including engine oil. These are generally high production layers people have kept on pellets for their lifetimes, already prematurely aged and breaking down in what should be their prime adult age, ratty feathered and just generally looking like animated cadavers.

Low calcium is obviously something that shouldn't occur on a healthy diet, and is pretty easy to avoid, as long as people are conscious of their animals' needs for calcium among other staple nutrients essential to life. There are some disorders of calcium metabolism that affect some individuals though, and this is one area where as healthy a diet as possible can help save an animal from dying from another issue. Low calcium plus inflexible mucosal membranes is a death sentence.

Best wishes.