Main Differences between heritage breeds and hybrids in average feed density needs

[Thomas Lamprogiorgos]

LAYER HYBRIDS (industrial white leghorns, red sex links)
Protein 17,50%
Fats 4%
Fiber 3,20%
Crude Ash 13,50%
Methionine 0,48%
Lysine 0,90%
Calcium 3,78%
Phosphorus 0,70%

MEAT HYBRID BIRDS (CX, red broilers)
Protein 20%
Fats 4,10%
Fiber 3,55%
Crude Ash 6%
Methionine 0,56%
Lysine 1,18%
Calcium 0,94%
Phosphorus 0,75%

HERITAGE BREEDS (in pre-layer and main reproduction period)
Protein 14,50%
Fats 4%
Fiber 5,50%
Crude Ash 13%
Methionine 0,32%
Lysine 0,60%
Calcium 3,60%
Phosphorus 0,70%

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Farmers living in the acres produce their own corn or/wheat and offer it to their chickens. In these conditions heritage chickens like white rocks overlay a hybrid layer like industrial leghorns and RSL, because they manage to cover a bigger amount of their smaller needs.

Again, I'd like to see the studies supporting these claims. I'm very curious as to your definition of "overlay", and moreover note that corn and oats are not nutritionally interchangeable ingredients, which lends further doubt to the veracity of your other claims.

Nor do I see any recent comments by you here on BYC which suggest a strong command of the topic of poultry nutrition generally. I might infer from your posts a marked preference for leghorns and white rocks over say, production reds, and further - to the extent that you are claiming that a classic heritage bird is less negatively impacted by low quality feed than a modern production Cx or production Layer (as you seem to have done here) - yes , that's true. But that's like saying a champion swimmer, gymnast, or weightlifter is more adversely affected by being restricted to a 2,000 calorie/day diet than the average 9-5 office drone.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Where is this info from? I would never feed any layer hen a 14% protein.

@U_Stormcrow calling you to look at this food need claim!

He's from Greece - the EU uses lower average protein, with higher Met and Lys thru synthetics. Ignoring the protein, the other numbers aren't unreasonable, though they don't match up with the sources I'm familiar with, either - ALL sources disagree, somewhat.
Chances you can find a 14.5% protein feed in the US with those numbers is about nil. Heck, I've seen plenty of 16%, and even some 18% protein feeds that still only have 0.3% met and 0.6 Lys.

Even so, @Thomas Lamprogiorgos - show your sources please.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I don't mean to seem to belittle, I really am interested in the research. Not enough is done involving "non-production" birds, whether those be the production red hybrids on the laying side, or the Cx and siblings on the table side. Plenty of us (self included) raise non-specialists because we can breed our own without need to maintain parent lines and multiple flocks. Good data on their dietary needs would be useful, to see if the studies bear out the theories, the reasonable inferences and the extensions by analogy.

However, just saying that a bird which performs "less" needs "less" isn't really helpful in determining whether the savings one achieves from feeding "less" (whether in quantity, nutritional density, or both) makes up for the loss in production. By the top line metric, we should all have a bunch of red jungle fowl - they need even less to sustain peak production...

The time frame of the study is also of interest, as a number of studies have come out suggesting that chickens can - for some nutritional components - continue to perform in spite of dietary deficiency for some period of time in spite of a known lack in the diet. How long, and how inpacted of course depends on both the vitamin and the deficiency.

This post started with some very specific figures, many of which can't be assayed at home, and some of which don't appear on the typical EU feed bag. VERY interested in how they are arrived it. For instance, is the relatively low crude protein number offset in part by use of synthetic amino acids (as the EU tends to do, particularly DL-Met and L-Lys), or by feed formulation inclusive of ingredients with relatively high levels of those critical aminos? What's the target MKE of the feed, expected rates of consumption?

What metrics are being measured for purposes of comparison? Do you have a nul hypothesis, or a test group on a 'Standard" feed (and how is that defined?) etc.

Is this a diet for cage kept, housed (both of which feed can be strictly controlled), pastured, or free ranged birds (both of which can potentially supplement the feed with the contents of the areas in which they graze? Were differences seen in the relative performance of transylvanians, plymouth rocks, orpingtons, australorps, leghorns, andalusians, etc, or were the numbers simply averaged??? and by transalvanians, do you mean naked necked? If so, there's a big difference between an NN producing maybe 100 medium eggs a year and an australorp producing about 250 large eggs a year.

Details matter. We'd love some data.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Test results, dear.

Links please. Those are very specific numbers for things that can't be tested at home. Some number of which do not even appear on EU feed labels. I'd like to read the studies for myself.

 

[Brooks_]

Again, I'd like to see the studies supporting these claims.

I think that is a very reasonable request.

 

[Iluveggers]

Where is this info from? I would never feed any layer hen a 14% protein.

@U_Stormcrow calling you to look at this food need claim!

 

[U_Stormcrow]

My sources are experienced greek farmers testing their stock for many many years.
They key is that heritage breeds thrive on less protein, which means less soy bean.

So pure opinion and anecdote. Got it.

 

[Perris]

Make your own study if you are a researcher. But, the number of the birds must be very big. But, I think that there will not be any interest. The results I published are from flock tests taking part in small farms in Greece.

if you want to be taken seriously you will need to say a whole lot more about the methods used in these tests, which should be possible even if you are at pre-publication stage.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

that won't hit even 14.5% crude protein, if your corn barley and wheat crops are anything like those here in the US, even if you were to use hard winter wheat. Vitamin premix? Additional aminos?

Here that mix is just over 11% crude protein as fed - barely better than the typical scratch (if you used hard wheat), and almost 10% crude protein as fed if you save a buck and grab a bag of the much more readily available soft wheat.