My White Leghorn - What to improve?

[Eric 2016]

Well said Sydny and Fred. As I was reading the thread there was one thing that I kept thinking and wanted to mention to the OP, learn all you can about the standard but don't expect to see it to often, I really wouldn't spend time trying to "judge" back yard flocks because you're just not going to see a show quality bird.

 

[mrjoltcola]

Thanks, you have been really helpful.

I didn't intend to breed them up. It was a hypothetical question to understand what I'm looking at but I guess I didn't anticipate that he was such a poor quality bird when I asked. I'm glad to know. You read my mind or anticipate my next question about "breeding up existing birds", so thank you. I have over 100 birds, not many of them have "squirrel tail", this rooster stood out to me because he was so upright, but I didn't know if it was a fault.

This year I started picking up some eggs & chicks from specialty breeders (I starting some Dominiques and adding some Black Copper Marans to my Blue Coppers) so it will be the last year I even order from a hatchery as I have enough stock of my own to sustain, unless I lose to sickness or predators. Though I might buy one of those all-black birds at some point.

I already planned to replace this LH rooster since he isn't friendly around the kids so this is further reason. I'm happy with my flocks, but if I can improve them over time while retaining most of the laying ability, I figure I should do that. I do NOT want my kids to be embarrassed to show my birds when I have so many, though I doubt they would be embarrassed, as they name and love every one of them regardless of "quality", but there is no point starting them off at a disadvantage to show, and I don't want to be the ignorant parent either. I have prettier birds (in my opinion), so maybe I will post those and find out how bad off I am there too

I have already ordered a couple of trios of New Hampshire and Barred Rock from a breeder with award winning birds, but wont have them until October, but I think I'm on the right track. If anyone feels like sending me info about breeders that have high quality stock of really any kind of bird, I am in the market, especially any breeders in Georgia in driving distance.

Thanks all.

 

[mrjoltcola]

I thought it would be fun to see whether I could improve on this guy, so after posting this thread last year, and learning more about judging my birds, and these specific faults like oversize comb and squirrel tail, I decided to hatch out a few batches of eggs and select the best. I produced approximately 40 roosters from the original bird in this thread, over 4 hens, and grew them out to about 14 weeks old to the point where the original faults were pretty evident, and 90% of them had the same faults, upright stance and squirrel tail, although what I did start to realize is most of the upright stance was related to comb mass. His comb was so big and heavy that he stands like that to balance it out. But aside from that, out of 40 birds, squirrel tail was evident in probably all but 4 or 5 and only 2 of those did NOT have the gigantic comb like their dad, and that is what I kept, 2 birds. There was 1 particular bird that immediately stood out as "handsome" by comparison, from just 6 weeks old and I'm glad he made it. He is grown now. The father is on the left, and the best bird out of 40 is on the right.



I did not expect such an improvement from where I started. I think, for purposes of production line, this is acceptable to me, although I am interested in finding some heritage or show quality leghorns. I did pickup a dozen eggs last fall from someone who had a more traditional line of leghorns, more flowing tail and a floppy comb, so I have roosters from 2 separate lines to try over my hens this summer and I'll update this thread with the next generation from both.

 

[Sydney Acres]

I thought it would be fun to see whether I could improve on this guy, so after posting this thread last year, and learning more about judging my birds, and these specific faults like oversize comb and squirrel tail, I decided to hatch out a few batches of eggs and select the best. I produced approximately 40 roosters from the original bird in this thread, over 4 hens, and grew them out to about 14 weeks old to the point where the original faults were pretty evident, and 90% of them had the same faults, upright stance and squirrel tail, although what I did start to realize is most of the upright stance was related to comb mass. His comb was so big and heavy that he stands like that to balance it out. But aside from that, out of 40 birds, squirrel tail was evident in probably all but 4 or 5 and only 2 of those did NOT have the gigantic comb like their dad, and that is what I kept, 2 birds. There was 1 particular bird that immediately stood out as "handsome" by comparison, from just 6 weeks old and I'm glad he made it. He is grown now. The father is on the left, and the best bird out of 40 is on the right.



I did not expect such an improvement from where I started. I think, for purposes of production line, this is acceptable to me, although I am interested in finding some heritage or show quality leghorns. I did pickup a dozen eggs last fall from someone who had a more traditional line of leghorns, more flowing tail and a floppy comb, so I have roosters from 2 separate lines to try over my hens this summer and I'll update this thread with the next generation from both.

That is a huge improvement in just one generation. Starting out isn't about producing 40 perfect roosters. It's about knowing which few of those 40 is worth keeping. Excellent work. Keep relying on that critical eye.

 

[mrjoltcola]

Thanks!

I also have a 2nd rooster from a separate line that came from eggs I bought last fall after I started this thread. Unlike my other roosters that have a large upright comb (which I am trying to reduce a bit over time, as you see in the comparison picture above), this new one has a floppy "leghorn" comb like a Leghorn hen. Besides the comb, he is, in my opinion, a better body type. From reading the standard, its hard to say whether one comb is better than the other, except in that it seems to go along with the sex of the bird, the standard indicates that a floppy comb is a female trait, and doesn't address the same comb in a male. Is this floppy comb a negative or disqualifying trait in a Leghorn rooster?

I have him in a breeding pen now over hens from my other line. What are your thoughts about the comb question?



PS: (Again, this is not about me showing these particular birds, its just about me learning to judge birds better). The number one trait about my current birds is they lay eggs like crazy (many days with all hens laying an egg), so if that suffers I don't care what they look like in the long run.

 

[RCleghorn]

The floppy comb in males is undesirable. That male is not a good representation of what a leghorn should look like. He lacks breast, back slopes downward, tail is way to high. Leghorns should have a good smooth sweep from back to tail with no breaks. Your bird doesnt have the desired sweep. In all honesty there is not much good about that bird as far as judging against the standard.

 

[mrjoltcola]

Ok. Keep in mind this is a production line, and I don't want the egg aspect to suffer. I had hoped to improve my production line within reason while still maintaining hens that lay 6 days a week, and sometimes 7.

I think I'm in a better state this year compared to last year as that original bird's comb was huge, and the stance too upright (likely from comb weight) and the tail/back angle was probably closer to 45 degrees than 90 degrees. I addressed both of those issues, and the hen offspring from the same generation is laying well. I won't know until next generation whether there is more to be improved. Short of crossing in a show line, I have little to work with, and if I do that, I will likely hurt the egg laying.

In your opinion, is the body type of the 2nd rooster (2nd generation of my initial post) better than the 3rd (floppy comb aside)?

 

[RCleghorn]

Well keep in mind that breeding towards the standard also means breeding for production. The body traits that the standard calls for are there to promote the production and be healthy vigorous birds. For example standard calls for a full well rounded breast. Deep breast to hold the many internal organs that are there and allow them to function properly.

Yes the 2nd male is the best male you have pictured. Still if you want to breed towards the standard go to a good reputable breeder and get a good start. He is young in that pic but he needs way more tail. That im not sure he will ever grow

 

[mrjoltcola]

Well keep in mind that breeding towards the standard also means breeding for production. The body traits that the standard calls for are there to promote the production and be healthy vigorous birds. For example standard calls for a full well rounded breast. Deep breast to hold the many internal organs that are there and allow them to function properly.

Yes the 2nd male is the best male you have pictured. Still if you want to breed towards the standard go to a good reputable breeder and get a good start. He is young in that pic but he needs way more tail. That im not sure he will ever grow

Agreed, on the other hand, not everyone gets satisfaction from simply buying better birds to replace birds they have had for years; I want my production leghorns selected for laying ability above all.

Production leghorns have been in our family for more than a generation (not the same physical line, but the breed). My great uncle made his living off of them from the 1950s and my childhood memories are of giant chicken houses with thousands of them, so I'm partial to them as far as a utility breed, unlike the rest of my birds. I have to think, if the leghorns were not the prolific layers that they are, the breed would not be synonymous with "chicken", as it is, nor would it be that popular. My browns lay approx 4 eggs per week. That's 2 eggs less than my whites who are running at 0.94 eggs per day over the past 11 days that I've logged them. (11 days, 7 hens, 73 eggs)

I'd rather start with a leghorn that lays well, and improve the body type, than start with body type, and improve the laying ability, because (1) I'm not planning to show the birds and (2) something tells me the reverse would take a lot longer and more generations. Evaluating a bird's laying ability is a time consuming, long-term affair.

Now, lest you think I'm stubborn and ignoring what you are saying, I am looking for some better looking white Leghorns. If, in fact, I can cross in a nice strain and retain or get back to a 300 egg a year bird, then I'm all for it. Among my many projects, I'd like to mix it in and see how far the egging falls off, and see whether I could restore it within a couple generations. Since I have never owned a quality standard bred leghorn, I have no idea how much work I would be in for. If you know a good source for conforming white leghorn chicks or hatching eggs I'm in the market.

I have another question, what about taking a colored Leghorn that has good body type, and cross in the white color?

Thanks for your comments!

 

[The Moonshiner]

I have another question, what about taking a colored Leghorn that has good body type, and cross in the white color?
Thanks for your comments!

Why would you want to mix colors?
If you want to bring in better type find a better white to bring in.
Imo its a lot easier to find good type white leghorns then any colored leghorns.
Also the whites almost always lay better then the other colors. Some just a bit better but some a lot better.
From your earlier posts.... I would scrap the floppy comb rooster. I didnt see anything that he would bring in that would be to the level you got your second generation rooster to.
You did a good job getting to the second rooster from your first one.