Not an Emergency...Marek's in the Flock

[Haunted55]

I have reached a point where I need input from those of you who are also facing this problem. I have 4 Marek's hens left and one is suffering from severe prolapse and her keel bone is extremely prominent. These girls eat as if there's no tomorrow and will never be anything except what they are due to the disease. I have some of their offspring hatched and at the 4 month age. One roo from this group just died a few days ago showing the leg paralysis and constant eating. No cocci, no respiratory issues, happy until he was no more. The others in this group are normal sized and very healthy so I guess there is merit to raising for immunity. I guess what I need to know is if it is worth it in the end, or should I just say goodbye and cull the poor girls left. I know this has to be a personal choice but I would really like some input.

It would be easy to cull the ones affected, but then what? Replace them? Okay, but how long do they have to stay apart even if they're vaccinated for Marek's? 6 months? A year? What about my original flock of layers and roo? They will be 2 years old in April. Do they go as well? They never had any symptoms of Marek's, but have been living with these survivors for months now. A lot of questions that I hope some of you can help me work through.

 

[cowcreekgeek]

Thank-you. Resistant birds do produce resistant chicks. I have eight out of nine birds who have hit the magic number of 10 weeks and beyond and are healthy, gaining weight and growing strong. The one from this group who died had paralysis of one leg and even though he made a valiant effort to get over it, just didn't make it. One loss to Marek's so far in this group I'd say is excellent odds. This is why I started this thread. I am on the fence about continuing with hatching more from these birds and just using them up, or if I should let them go. My heart tells me one thing but my head tells me another. Sounds silly, I know. These birds are the hope of my flock and it's future.

You 'n I have kicked this around a bit, and I do understand why you'd be on the fence about the whole issue ... it's easy enough for folks to suggest goin' through this disease, 'til they actually have: It's no fun. At all.

But, neither is the thought of startin' over from scratch; the 'undoing' of all you've done so far.

But, most folks don't realize that it's so ridiculously common in poultry that it really can't be avoided by even the most careful measures of biosecurity ... sorta like humans hopin' to avoid the flu, except that (at least so far) we're not likely to be infected by wild birds.

My birds are not inoculated, which I sorta regret. But, until this newest vaccine has been licensed, and is available? Nothing I buy will be, either. However, keepin' those that seem to just be limpin' along is problematic in so many ways: Those showing significant symptoms should be culled, whether you're hopin' to develop resistance w/in your flock, or not.

Speaking of which? Here's a [broken link; see below] focused google search, for that. You also might wanna google Visceral Leukosis, which is the disease that Marek's actually is.

Marek's has multiple forms (some say four, but there's six herpes viruses responsible), and all infected birds are carriers for life. It's one of the most common lymphoproliferative diseases, but there are others that you'd have to differentiate their symptoms from ... easier said than done.

So is breeding for resistance, 'cause you may have only one strain, or even several, or even none at all, and what happens when the next arrives? Short of intentionally infecting all birds w/ all known threats, there's little hope of actually developing the 'super flock' I'd once imagined I could. But, 'til then? There's always replacements, and they're still cheaper than one dozen of even lousy eggs.

But, for those hopin' to try their hand at it, or just to definitively know 'yes/no' w/o necropsy? They can test frozen/shipped feathers by real time PCR. While googling it, I found yet another remarkably qualified lady at NCSU's College of Veterinary Medicine, Dr. Isabel M. Gimeno. and this page about her serves well to explain exactly what the MDV is.

SoOo ... it actually turns out that those wild birds flyin' about are nearly as big of a threat to our flocks as the raptors are (but I guess I'll keep on feedin' them, too ~'-)

:: edit to correct broken link:
Go to http://www.google.com, and copy/paste the following:
"marek's+disease"+poultry+breeding+resistance+site:.edu

 

[Nambroth]

Anyway, my point is that it appears that a good practice for the flock's health is the ACV and the garlic which help with cocci, and with compromised immnune systems, maybe doubly important.

Now I need to figure out what sort of vitamins I should be providing when the flock finishes its 5 day corid treatment.

One word about ACV (Apple Cider Vinegar for those not familiar with the acronym). And, as a disclaimer, I am just a layperson and not an expert.
I think ACV is great. I make it at home and use it in meals, for salad dressing, and when cleaning as a mild cleaner (not sanitizing just cleaning). I also use a little bit in my chicken waterers in summer to help control algae, as it can grow quickly even with scrubbing the waterers daily. I think it is great stuff. It tastes good, is easy and cheap to make, and has a lot going for it. I like it.

BUT....

I am saying this not because I think you are doing something wrong, but because a lot of people lurk and find answers on this forum via google search (like, a LOT!) and so might want to know the whole story...
If a bird is having a problem with cocci, treat with the appropriate medication (such as Corid, etc). ACV is very acidic (which is one of the great things about it... in some situations) and not only may cause additional harm and irritation to the digestive tract linings (which are already under assault by the coccidia) but it may adversely affect any medication given.

For those that give ACV, especially in the long term, to prevent cocci...
It is important to know that studies have shown that long term ingestion of ACV might cause low potassium over the long term. The studies have been done in human trials, not in chickens. Why low potassium in laying hens is a problem is because they are already prone to potassium and calcium uptake problems (osteoporosis and egg binding, reproductive issues with shell gland, etc). I am not trying to scare anyone, but my thought is: Why compound the problem? What benefits does ACV have?

Well, ACV (raw, good stuff that has the "mother" or Mycoderma aceti) does have some probiotics. Probiotics are one reason that ACV is touted for cocci control. Specifically, I have read that Pediococcus acidilactici is especially good at helping a bird build up a natural resistance to cocci (source1, source2, source3). The problem with relying upon ACV as the source for these specific bacteria is that there is not much control; in fact I could not find any literature that lists exactly what species of probiotics it produces (which I must assume will vary depending on the environment where it is produced). Truly, all I could find is that it plays host to Acetylobacter bacteria as they are the main Acetic Acid bacteria that convert the apple juice to vinegar. The amount of vinegar that you'd need to give each bird in order go guarantee a good probiotic load of the most benefical bacteria species might be more than is safe to give over the long term.
Quote: And it might vary wildly in ACV, depending on who made it, where, and with what means. It is my suggestion, then, if you have consistent cocci problems in your soil (especially in moist, warm climates) that you consider a concentrated probiotic, that can deliver the beneficial bacteria without the irritating acidic content and possibility of potassium deficiency over the long term. Some of the best feeds have a good probiotic mixed in, but many commercial feeds don't. Just check your ingredients label. My feed has a very good probiotic but no Pediococcus acidilactici. It's pretty simple to add if you want to and if you are fighting an ongoing cocci problem, it might be of benefit. People that have not had trouble with cocci in the past (I have been fortunate) can probably forgo this unless they wish to be very proactive...

Those that offer ACV for the mineral and vitamin content would be far better of switching to a better feed if it is lacking, or providing better nutrition in a different way. The amount of ACV one would need to give chickens in order to substantially increase mineral and vitamin intake is very high.

I found this product. I am in no way endorsing it, and you may be able to find other probiotics that have similar flora in them. http://www.avian.nl/EN/biomin-probioticum.html
The study I linked above did trials with several probiotics. One was "Mitomax" which again I am not endorsing, but claimed it reduced cocci oocyst shedding by up to 38%. http://www.imagilin.com/mitomax.html
There are probably others, too.

In conclusion: ACV is good, I like it, but I would not depend on it for probiotic help in warding off parasites/cocci. Don't be deterred from ACV but also be realistic in what it does for you and your birds.

 

[Harry Rooster]

So sorry for you. I may be having this also, don't know yet, waiting for the necropsy report to tell if it's Marek's of Lymphoma, and then I guess they will tell me what I should do. Personally, I hope they don't tell me to cull. I've never had to do that and I've had chickens for about 7 years now. I know that's a hard decision. Sorry I don't know enough to give you input, just kind words of compassion, I'll be looking to see what others may advise you, so I'll know if my time comes around. Sorry.

 

[Overoberyl]

Thank you for the info. I can't be sure it is mareks, as I didn't get the birds tested. Only one breed ever died, the others have always been fine. I suppose I'll never know... I still love my birds, and will continue to enjoy them =) Thank you sooooo much!! You guys are so helpful!

I'll apologize ahead of time if this sounds rude, but now all of a sudden you think it might not be Marek's? Seems sort of convenient. I hope it isn't, but if you're avoiding the truth so as to be able to sell eggs in good conscience, please do your future customers a favor and have a necropsy done. I'm sure many people get the disease in their flocks because others suspected they had it and never got a conclusive answer. That is how the problem is perpetuated.

 

[pysankigirl]

Sorry to hear about the possible Mareks. It is not the end of the world, though. you may lose a small percentage of birds, but most of them will develop a resistance to it, (I am told.) I was devastated when I lost my first bird during my first year of having chickens, Eventually you develop a bit more realistic expectations and accept a loss now and then. Everyone thinks that they will be different because they will take really good care of theirs and they will live really long lives. But alot of it is really out of your control and all you can do is the best you can. It is just the way things are. There are just too many things to go wrong. Wild birds spread disease all over. Everything wants to eat your chickens.

Hugs and I hope she gets better. but if not...you are not to blame

 

[seminolewind]

CeeJ, many of us on this thread have gone thru the same feelings. Thinking it's the end of the world. But it's not. You and everybody else can eat the eggs. No problem.

You can get vaccinated chicks from hatcheries, quarantine them for 2 plus weeks. I've done 6 weeks. If you hatch your own eggs under your own hens, they should be born with some resistance. If you get eggs from someone else, they got to be incubated and vaccinated.

You might save a lot of money if you buy an incubator and hatch your own Cream Legbars. And vaccinate. It is truly a lot more fun than getting chicks in the mail, LOL.

You may not have any control over what's happening now, but you can have control over what happens in the future. And be excited about your chickens. Don't let this nasty virus take the joy away from you.

 

[casportpony]

First let me start by saying that I mean no offense to anyone and I apologize in advance if I have upset you, but I cannot help myself when it comes to matters of dosing, lol. Second, if I have made an error in my math, please let me know and I'll fix it.

The Corid dose for treatment is *not* 1/2 teaspoon, not sure who came up with that, but it's wrong and people keep repeating it. FYI, I used to tell people that the dose was 1/2 teaspoon and for that I was wrong and I feel really bad about it. From now on I will not repeat things I have read here on BYC unless I have also read that same info from a reliable, published source.
The info below is from a thread I started:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/users/subscriptions/index/view/threads

Due to some confusion on dose amounts regarding the powder, I decided to do some research and this is what I have so far. For those of you that use powder Corid, if you have been using 1/2 teaspoon per gallon (~270mg) you haven't been using enough.

The preventative dose (.006%) for Corid Powder is 1/3 teaspoon.
The preventative dose (.006%) for Corid liquid is 1/2 teaspoon.

The moderate outbreak dose (.012%) for Corid Powder is 3/4 teaspoon.
The moderate outbreak dose (.012%) for Corid liquid is 1 teaspoon.

The severe outbreak dose (.024%) for Corid Powder is 1.5 teaspoons
The severe outbreak dose (.024%) for Corid liquid is 2 teaspoon.

Corid mixing instructions for preventative (.006%) and moderate (.012%) outbreak dosing.
http://www.corid.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/CORID Slim Jim-All.pdf

Amprol 20% powder:
http://www.asp-inc.com/products/documents/prodinfo/a/amp128.pdf

Amprol 9.6% liquid:
http://www.asp-inc.com/products/documents/prodinfo/a/amp96.pdf

FDA recommendations:
http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/animaldrugsatfda/details.cfm?dn=013-149
"Chickens
Indications: For the treatment of coccidiosis.
Amount: Administer at the 0.012 percent level in drinking water as soon as coccidiosis is diagnosed and continue for 3 to 5 days (in severe outbreaks, give amprolium at the 0.024 percent level); continue with 0.006 percent amprolium-medicated water for an additional 1 to 2 weeks."

And this link has these instructions:
http://www.drugs.com/vet/amprol-9-6-solution-can.html
"Poultry - as Soon As Caecal Coccidiosis Is Diagnosed, Give 0.024% Amprolium In The Drinking Water For 5 To 7 Days. Continue The Treatment With 0.006% Amprolium Medicated Water For An Additional One To Two Weeks. No Other Source Of Drinking Water Should Be Available To The Birds During This Time."

Here's the math, let me know if I made an error.

• There are 200mg of amprolium in every 1 gram of powder.
• 1 ounce = 3.5 tablespoons = 28.35 grams
• 200mg x 28.35 = 5670mg in 3.5 tablespoons of powder.
• There are 10.5 teaspoons in 3.5 tablespoons
• There are 21 1/2 teaspoons in 10.5 teaspoons
• 5670mg divided by 21 1/2 teaspoons = ~270mg per 1/2 teaspoon
• There are two 1/4 teaspoons per 1/2 teaspoon
• 270 mg divided by 2 = 135mg per 1/4 teaspoon

Amount of Amprolium (Corid or Amprol) powder per 1/4 teaspoon
​

• One 1/4 teaspoon = 135 mg
• 1/2 teaspoon = 270 mg
• 3/4 teaspoon =405 mg
• 1 teaspoon = 540 mg
• 1 & 1/4 teaspoons = 675 mg
• 1 & 1/2 teaspoons = 810 mg
• 1 & 3/4 teaspoons = 945 mg
• 2 teaspoons= 1080 mg

Amount of Amprolium (Corid or Amprol) liquid per 1/4 teaspoon
​

• One 1/4 teaspoon = 120 mg
• 1/2 teaspoon = 240 mg
• 3/4 teaspoons = 360 mg
• 1 teaspoon = 480 mg
• 1 & 1/4 teaspoons = 600 mg
• 1 & 1/2 teaspoons = 720 mg
• 1 & 3/4 teaspoons = 840
• 2 teaspoons = 960 mg

There are 4.92892ml/teaspoon, but the numbers above were calculated using 5ml/teaspoon

​

Here is what's in 1-10ml of the liquid

• 1ml = 96mg
• 2ml = 192mg
• 3ml = 288mg
• 4ml = 384mg
• 5ml = 480mg
• 6ml = 576mg
• 7ml = 672mg
• 8ml = 768mg
• 9ml = 864mg
• 10ml = 960mg

Bottom line, 1 teaspoon (540mg) of powder is equal to 5.625ml of liquid and 1/2 teaspoon powder (270mg) is equal to 2.8125ml liquid.

1/2 teaspoon of 20% powder = 2.8125ml of 9.6% liquid - Both have 270mg of amprolium.
3/4 teaspoon of 20% powder = 4.21875ml of 9.6% liquid - Both have 405mg of amprolium.
1 teaspoon of 20% powder = 5.625ml of 9.6% liquid - Both have 540mg of amprolium.
1.5 teaspoons of 20% powder =8.4375ml of 9.6% liquid - Both have 810mg of amprolium.
1.75 teaspoons of 20% powder = 9.84375ml of 9.6% liquid - Both have 945mg of amprolium.
2 teaspoons of 20% powder = 11.25ml of 9.6% liquid - Both have 1080mg of amprolium.



And if that doesn't convince people, here is another way I did it:

From:
http://www.asp-inc.com/products/documents/prodinfo/a/amp128.pdf:

Dosage Level Mixing Directions
0.024% Dissolve 8 ounces of AMPROL 128 20% Soluble Powder in about five gallons of water in a 50-gallon medication barrel. Stir, then add water to the 50 gallon mark. Stir thoroughly.
0.012% Follow same directions as above but use 4 ounces of AMPROL 128 20% Soluble Powder.
0.006% Follow same directions as above but use 2 ounces of AMPROL 128 20% Soluble Powder.

Facts

• One pack = 10 oz. (283.5 grams)
• One ounce = 28.35 grams
• One ounce of powder = ~3.5 tablespoons
• 200mg amprolium per 1 gram

My twisted math for the .024% level
If 8 ounces (28.35g x 8 = 226.8 grams) are needed for 50 gallons, then 1/50 of that is needed for 1 gallon, right? So that would be 226.8 grams divided by 50 = 4.536 grams per gallon. (doing this as I type, so correct me if I'm wrong, please!)

So how much does a teaspoon of Corid or Amprol powder weigh? Anyone know? Well, time to break out my gram scale and do some weighing... also have a call into the mfg of Corid and I'm expecting a call back from them.

Just got a call back from them and it is 4.536 grams per gallon. He also said that it's a very safe product and the risk of overdosing is very slim.

-Kathy


Disclaimer:
In the past I have treated my chicken chicks with 2 teaspoons of the liquid for 5-7 days, that's it, but I *might* try the .006% follow up the next time I have to treat chicks.

 

[Nambroth]

I have noticed some of the same questions coming up on Marek's time after time (both on this site and off) that require somewhat in-depth answers. I am writing up a somewhat in-depth article on Marek's... it will take me a while but once I am done I will post it here and would be happy to take feedback and make edits and additions to make it a good resource. I am far from an expert but if I can help even one person or help one chicken then it's worth it to me.
I will, of course, also link to the existing resources out there such as seminolewind's great FAQ.

 

[Nambroth]

I have a question regarding Mareks vaccine,i have never had a case of Mareks,but this disease above all others terrifies me the most. If i can get my vet to vaccinate my birds(my only option is a vet,vaccine cannot be shipped to Canada)is it 100% completely safe,i would hate to vaccinate healthy birds and have them contract disease via vaccine.

All the literature on Mareks in Canada,says the vaccine used is a combined turkey Herpes Virus(HVT) and part of the virus for Infectious Laryngotracheitis(ILT) It is called Innovax-ILT. Apparently b/c it does not contain a live virus,it provides birds with life long protection against Marek's and ILT without the "respiratory reactions or spreading of virus that can be associated with the live chicken embryo vaccine". Article then states that "HVT vaccine will not prevent infection with the virus,but will impede development of lymphoma in infected chickens". Is this the same vaccine that is used by those on this forum for older birds?

I encourage you to read the Vaccination section in this faq: https://www.backyardchickens.com/a/the-great-big-giant-mareks-disease-faq

The vaccine is completely safe to administer to healthy, non immuno-compromised chickens of any age. They literally can not get Marek's Disease from the serotypes that are used in the vaccinations.
It is unclear if it will help adult birds, but it can not harm them if they are otherwise healthy. It is important to note that it should not be considered to give them the same amount of protection as if they had been properly vaccinated at less than 36 hours old. But, it cannot hurt.

The only vaccine that we can get here in the USA, at the time of writing, via mail order, is MDV-3 Turkey Herpesvirus Marek's vaccine (HVT). The other vaccines that some of the industry (commercial farms and hatcheries) uses are not available to the layperson to buy, here.

Essentially, none of the vaccines prevent infection. They only help to prevent the lympomatic tumors that cause death. The chickens can still become infected and can shed the virus/spread it even if they develop immunity/resistance, either naturally or via vaccination.