Not an Emergency...Marek's in the Flock

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Maybe there's something to what the vet is saying about cocci. Judging by my necropsies, a sick bird is most likely going to have an increase in cocci (theory) So even with worms, if a bird has worms, and the worms did damage, the cocci have a nice warm place to go be fruitful and multiply.

Here I am waiting for my 3rd necropsy, suspecting Marek's , and getting results of anything but. I'm glad I"m sending the necropsies. It's much better knowing why.

I have another hen who is not feeling good. Sat in the same spot all day for 2 days. My guess is EYP. I keep wondering if people with 30 chickens find deaths common with those over 4-5 years old? Or does it just happen in clusters? For all different reasons?
 
I had a tough summer and was not as diligent with the flock as I usually am. Meaning, I didn't always have garlic cloves in the water, and I didn't always have ACV water. Both of those things would have supported the hens with cocci. Not sure if they would have been sufficient to offset the depressed immune system from mareks.

good that my asymptomatic rooster had nothing to suggest he had mareks - if I understand this disease correctly, he could have been a carrier and I wouldn't know it from the necropsy since the pcr tests or blood tests weren't done.

this is what the vet at the univ path lab said about pcr testing:
I have come across two options for Marek's disease testing in terms of PCR test.

One PCR test available at University of Texas requires chicken blood collected in EDTA (noncoagulated) to be tested for Marek's disease virus nuclei acid. this test is approx. $30 per sample and would be conducted on birds that are still alive.

A second test, available at University of Georgia, is conducted on tissue or blood. I called the lab and the technician believes they can test brain that has been previously fixed in preservative, but she will have to confirm. This test is approximately $110.

Please keep in mind that both of these tests only indicate that birds have been exposed to the MD virus and do not prove that MD is the primary disease. Many birds can test positive for MD with such tests because the virus is ubiquitous, but many exposed birds do not develop clinical signs or lesions because they have been vaccinated.

So, I could have asked at the time I brought the live birds in that they do a live blood test for mareks, but I didn't because I assumed that would happen. Afterwards, I didn't want to pay the $110 for the brain test.

Anyway, my point is that it appears that a good practice for the flock's health is the ACV and the garlic which help with cocci, and with compromised immnune systems, maybe doubly important.

Now I need to figure out what sort of vitamins I should be providing when the flock finishes its 5 day corid treatment.
 
After treating for coccidiosis with Corid, vitamins A, B1 thiamine, and vitamin K need to be replaced for several days. Vitamin K is found in greens such as kale. Probiotics should be given also.
 
Eggcessive said:
After treating for coccidiosis with Corid, vitamins A, B1 thiamine, and vitamin K need to be replaced for several days. Vitamin K is found in greens such as kale. Probiotics should be given also.
Click to expand...
Did you know that there is a brand of amprolium powder that comes with vitamin A and K? Have a sample of it somewhere... will look for it and post more info.

-Kathy
 
lalaland said:
I had a tough summer and was not as diligent with the flock as I usually am. Meaning, I didn't always have garlic cloves in the water, and I didn't always have ACV water. Both of those things would have supported the hens with cocci. Not sure if they would have been sufficient to offset the depressed immune system from mareks.

good that my asymptomatic rooster had nothing to suggest he had mareks - if I understand this disease correctly, he could have been a carrier and I wouldn't know it from the necropsy since the pcr tests or blood tests weren't done.

this is what the vet at the univ path lab said about pcr testing:
I have come across two options for Marek's disease testing in terms of PCR test.

One PCR test available at University of Texas requires chicken blood collected in EDTA (noncoagulated) to be tested for Marek's disease virus nuclei acid. this test is approx. $30 per sample and would be conducted on birds that are still alive.

A second test, available at University of Georgia, is conducted on tissue or blood. I called the lab and the technician believes they can test brain that has been previously fixed in preservative, but she will have to confirm. This test is approximately $110.

Please keep in mind that both of these tests only indicate that birds have been exposed to the MD virus and do not prove that MD is the primary disease. Many birds can test positive for MD with such tests because the virus is ubiquitous, but many exposed birds do not develop clinical signs or lesions because they have been vaccinated.

So, I could have asked at the time I brought the live birds in that they do a live blood test for mareks, but I didn't because I assumed that would happen. Afterwards, I didn't want to pay the $110 for the brain test.

Anyway, my point is that it appears that a good practice for the flock's health is the ACV and the garlic which help with cocci, and with compromised immnune systems, maybe doubly important.

Now I need to figure out what sort of vitamins I should be providing when the flock finishes its 5 day corid treatment.
Click to expand...


I'm thinking anytime the birds get stressed or ill, cocci with multiply because it's there already. I will think about the acv and garlic.

From a hatchery, I got something called Broiler Booster that has all the vitamins and minerals and probiotics all in one. I'll have to look up the price. The dose is 1/4 tsp per gallon, which makes it go far.
 
lalaland said:
Anyway, my point is that it appears that a good practice for the flock's health is the ACV and the garlic which help with cocci, and with compromised immnune systems, maybe doubly important.

Now I need to figure out what sort of vitamins I should be providing when the flock finishes its 5 day corid treatment.
Click to expand...


One word about ACV (Apple Cider Vinegar for those not familiar with the acronym). And, as a disclaimer, I am just a layperson and not an expert.
I think ACV is great. I make it at home and use it in meals, for salad dressing, and when cleaning as a mild cleaner (not sanitizing just cleaning). I also use a little bit in my chicken waterers in summer to help control algae, as it can grow quickly even with scrubbing the waterers daily. I think it is great stuff. It tastes good, is easy and cheap to make, and has a lot going for it. I like it.

BUT....

I am saying this not because I think you are doing something wrong, but because a lot of people lurk and find answers on this forum via google search (like, a LOT!) and so might want to know the whole story...
If a bird is having a problem with cocci, treat with the appropriate medication (such as Corid, etc). ACV is very acidic (which is one of the great things about it... in some situations) and not only may cause additional harm and irritation to the digestive tract linings (which are already under assault by the coccidia) but it may adversely affect any medication given.

For those that give ACV, especially in the long term, to prevent cocci...
It is important to know that studies have shown that long term ingestion of ACV might cause low potassium over the long term. The studies have been done in human trials, not in chickens. Why low potassium in laying hens is a problem is because they are already prone to potassium and calcium uptake problems (osteoporosis and egg binding, reproductive issues with shell gland, etc). I am not trying to scare anyone, but my thought is: Why compound the problem? What benefits does ACV have?

Well, ACV (raw, good stuff that has the "mother" or Mycoderma aceti) does have some probiotics. Probiotics are one reason that ACV is touted for cocci control. Specifically, I have read that Pediococcus acidilactici is especially good at helping a bird build up a natural resistance to cocci (source1, source2, source3). The problem with relying upon ACV as the source for these specific bacteria is that there is not much control; in fact I could not find any literature that lists exactly what species of probiotics it produces (which I must assume will vary depending on the environment where it is produced). Truly, all I could find is that it plays host to Acetylobacter bacteria as they are the main Acetic Acid bacteria that convert the apple juice to vinegar. The amount of vinegar that you'd need to give each bird in order go guarantee a good probiotic load of the most benefical bacteria species might be more than is safe to give over the long term.
Quote: And it might vary wildly in ACV, depending on who made it, where, and with what means. It is my suggestion, then, if you have consistent cocci problems in your soil (especially in moist, warm climates) that you consider a concentrated probiotic, that can deliver the beneficial bacteria without the irritating acidic content and possibility of potassium deficiency over the long term. Some of the best feeds have a good probiotic mixed in, but many commercial feeds don't. Just check your ingredients label. My feed has a very good probiotic but no Pediococcus acidilactici. It's pretty simple to add if you want to and if you are fighting an ongoing cocci problem, it might be of benefit. People that have not had trouble with cocci in the past (I have been fortunate) can probably forgo this unless they wish to be very proactive...

Those that offer ACV for the mineral and vitamin content would be far better of switching to a better feed if it is lacking, or providing better nutrition in a different way. The amount of ACV one would need to give chickens in order to substantially increase mineral and vitamin intake is very high.

I found this product. I am in no way endorsing it, and you may be able to find other probiotics that have similar flora in them. http://www.avian.nl/EN/biomin-probioticum.html
The study I linked above did trials with several probiotics. One was "Mitomax" which again I am not endorsing, but claimed it reduced cocci oocyst shedding by up to 38%. http://www.imagilin.com/mitomax.html
There are probably others, too.

In conclusion: ACV is good, I like it, but I would not depend on it for probiotic help in warding off parasites/cocci. Don't be deterred from ACV but also be realistic in what it does for you and your birds. :)
 
seminolewind said:
Aren't chickens more resistant to cocci with age? What would cause an ongoing problem?
Click to expand...

I am not as well versed in cocci as some of you, but I am guessing immune system problems, and cocci as a secondary problem from an immune system compromise. Perhaps other reasons too? "Stress"? I don't know. I know this is a bit off topic but Marek's and Cocci seem to be playmates for this reason...
 

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