Old and Rare Breeds

[gjensen]

Here's a pic of one of our RC Ancona pullets at 5 mo. Now, at 6 1/2 she's breath taking. The Anconas have made some serious strides forward this year.

I like your Anconas. I imagine they are especially nice looking on range.

 

[flitter]

I wish he was still with us. The advice in general is still sound, Redcaps might be the only exception because it appears no breeders are working on them. In all other cases hatcheries are garbage and the birds they sell are garbage.

Hopefully sometime in the future someone will take the time to try and breed up Redcaps but that would be a long long process and that person would have to be super dedicated to the breed. I'd say it be a good candidate to be recreated but I don't think we know how it was created to begin with?

True, true and true.. So I'll keep fumbling along. I'll have 20 wintering this winter. That's a bigger start for next spring than I've had in the past... won't breed them all but growing out and keeping more in hopes that I'll have a better selection.

 

[BGMatt]

True, true and true.. So I'll keep fumbling along. I'll have 20 wintering this winter. That's a bigger start for next spring than I've had in the past... won't breed them all but growing out and keeping more in hopes that I'll have a better selection.

Where did you get your start from? How long have you had them? I've heard the biggest problem is size, how far under are they, and are you making progress?

I've had a couple local newbies and customers ask me about them, but it's a project that's just beyond my infrastructure to support right now.

 

[flitter]

I've had them for 5 years... got serious about it 3 years ago... so that's early days yet. My first Redcaps were in a mix from McMurray... I really liked them and I still have one hen from that order... she still lays and she surely is healthy. By year 2, I was looking for breeders and ordered from Ideal. Year 3, I still looked for breeders and ordered from Sand Hill.
Size is the biggest problem. The cocks should be 6 lbs... I have finally gotten mine up from 4.25 to 4.8 lbs.They don't seem to have increased in weight at all this summer... may have dropped a bit.
Other problems: white ears, combs with splits, hollow combs, speckled feathering in some hens... I know there's more but weight/type has been the main culling point so far.
I would like to have more room fro this.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Flitter, have you considered raising them to 8 weeks and the weighing and keeping the top 10% at that point, and just keep hatching and culling at 8 weeks for weight?

 

[Yellow House Farm]

I might have asked before, but how is their egg production? (I mean your RC Anconas, not Ancona in general)

It's pretty good, pretty consistent. I have not been emphasizing it as I used to. I realized that type needed to come first or it would never come at all. With type getting fixed I'm fixing a rhythm to start emphasizing production. They're certainly homestead ready now, but like all things selection pressure will only benefit.

 

[flitter]

Flitter, have you considered raising them to 8 weeks and the weighing and keeping the top 10% at that point, and just keep hatching and culling at 8 weeks for weight?

I usually cull out the smallest around 8 weeks and again around 16 weeks... probably 15% at that point. Then I cull out a few more in the early fall. I decided to hold on to more than 10% this year because I ended with hollow combs and a single comb last fall and when I culled those my numbers were too low for safety. I really only cull for size but do cull out the really bad combs... had a couple wry tails the first year of my own hatches... culled them. I'm culling out one entire line, too... I kept only individuals without the hollows but they produced hollow so they are all going/gone.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

I usually cull out the smallest around 8 weeks and again around 16 weeks... probably 15% at that point. Then I cull out a few more in the early fall. I decided to hold on to more than 10% this year because I ended with hollow combs and a single comb last fall and when I culled those my numbers were too low for safety. I really only cull for size but do cull out the really bad combs... had a couple wry tails the first year of my own hatches... culled them. I'm culling out one entire line, too... I kept only individuals without the hollows but they produced hollow so they are all
going/gone.

Oh, I agree. Before I even start weighing a batch, I look at them for unacceptable traits. Don't even put them in your realm of temptation. Just eat 'em.

 

[Alaskan]

It's pretty good, pretty consistent.  I have not been emphasizing it as I used to.  I realized that type needed to come first or it would never come at all.  With type getting fixed I'm fixing a rhythm to start emphasizing production.  They're certainly homestead ready now, but like all things selection pressure will only benefit.

Oh! That answered the other question I had!

Which was, how do you figure out what to select for, if you want temperament, production, and SOP. So, you think go for SOP first.

I was thinking that that was maybe the benefit of having multiple pens of the same breed. Maybe half of the pens could be for SOP, and the other half for temperament and production, and then combine the two once you are close to your goals.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Oh! That answered the other question I had!

Which was, how do you figure out what to select for, if you want temperament, production, and SOP. So, you think go for SOP first.

I was thinking that that was maybe the benefit of having multiple pens of the same breed. Maybe half of the pens could be for SOP, and the other half for temperament and production, and then combine the two once you are close to your goals.

You have to be careful with temperament. "Bad temperament" can often emerge from inappropriate husbandry. There's a learning curve for everyone, and everyone at some point does something that makes their birds crazy. However, with practice one comes to recognize the screamers. You might be with a dozen birds and one or two of them are just insane: scratching, screaming, flapping, going nuts. If a majority of the other birds are calmer, more even keeled, then it is a reflection on that bird. If all of your birds are doing this, it might be a reflection of floor space or the way you act around the birds.

Our Anconas would be wild, and have the flying ability to be wild, if I went rushing about the place, flailing about, chasing them trying to pick them up, etc... Instead, I walk gently around them speaking softly. When they start going out of doors in the morning, I start by opening the door and sitting a few good feet away, making them deal with my presence while exiting. Gradually, I move closer and closer over the course of several mornings until after a few weeks I'll sit in the door and make them walk over my lap to exit the building. I throw the wheat as a treat, and they come running to see what I have. Now when I go to pick them up, many will assume the submission posture, and I pick them up easily--remember these are the horrible, flighty Anconas--rubbish. However, if something startles me and I move uncharacteristically quickly, they scatter, which is a good thing. If there's a non-Game classs of birds that can take care of itself, it's the Mediterranean breeds, along with the Hamburgs, Campines, and Lakenvelders.

To breed for SOP and production: Hatch in early spring. Track weights cull anything that shows any lack of thrift at all. Cull any defect the moment you see it. Do not make excuses. At 6 to 7 months old, weigh your birds, take strong note of type and then color. Reserve your finalists. Have more finalists that you need brood fowl. In mid/late January, go over your birds again. Weigh them, palpate for indicators of laying, and set up your breedings.

Don't breed from low quality birds just for numbers. Pair up your birds like a rabbitry, or perhaps in trios, don't add extra hens unless they are the true peers of the other females. Try to work with a minimum of four males. Toe punch everything.

Notice that with this rhythm, you are following growth and weight right from the start. At 6-ish months you're culling to the Standard, and in mid/late winter, when production is the hardest, you're seeing who's producing. This way you develop SOP quality birds that exude productivity, size, and thrift. If you don't select to the SOP, you're just reinventing hatchery birds, and they already do that better than you.

This, though, is why breeding too many breeds is deleterious to a strong breeding program. For every breed you raise it requires either a duplication of infrastructure and effort or a halving of output per breed. In the former you slowly, unperceptively develop a hatchery

that costs tens of thousands of dollars

, and hope your spouse will just keep loving you anyways

. In the second scenario you breed for years and years and get no where

eventually loosing heart and deciding you're not good at chickens

. If you choose one breed

and start attending shows where you meet important mentors

, you eventually just get to relax

and enjoy the rewards

of the order you've created

while your peers are left wondering why it doesn't go their way

and you struggle not to gloat

so that folks keep talking to you

. (Really that last bit was just to use a disco rabbit

)

It would seem I'm having too much fun and should go out and shovel the growing coop I'll apparently do just about anything to avoid. Honestly...chickens....geesh...