Old Fashioned Broody Hen Hatch A Long and Informational Thread

[Scrambles55]

Here are 3 of my 4 chicks. 3 Lav Am and one black. I am keeping one pullet and rehoming the others when they are older.

 

[Peach Mom]

The Marek's vaccine does not create a contagious bird. It is a mild form of the virus that triggers the immune response of the bird to keep the tumors in check from the real virus. Therefore the vaccine does not prevent Marek's either. It only prevents the tumors from growing inside the vaccinated bird reducing the symptoms.

Young chicks are vaccinated at a day old because it normally takes about 6 weeks for the tumors to begin to grow and potentially produce the dreaded symptoms. These symptoms typically show up at 6 to 24 weeks in birds who are not vaccinated or who have low natural resistance to Marek's...usually just before or after the stresses of coming into laying. Many think the bird's natural immune system is compromised due to the hormones reducing their natural resistance to keep the tumors in check. EDITED TO ADD: obviously male birds contract the disease too, but there is a higher incidence in females just around the age of lay.

You can vaccinate an older bird with no ill effect to the older bird...but probably no positive effect either...whatever possible tumors the bird may already have in place will not be reduced by the vaccination...therefore people typically don't vaccinate older birds because it is often a waste of money and effort since they likely have already contracted the virus and obviously have been fending it off with natural resistance.

Many birds are naturally resistant to Markes; many of us keep flocks of naturally resistant birds and do not vaccinate. It is a preference.

Once a bird contracts the true Marek's virus, it will be a carrier for life. Many flock owners purposely breed from flock members who have survived Marek's and lived to thrive as they show they have a natural resistance to the disease. Marek's is not passed vertically, from hen to egg; therefore embryos in the shell will not contract Marek's from the mother but can obtain her genetic natural resistance.

Currently, the vaccine used is either a Turkey virus derivative or a more recent chicken strain derivative...however the vaccination program is inadvertently naturally selecting for more virulent forms of Mareks...ie Mareks that is especially virulent and not reduced by the vaccine is making a rise.

So you needn't fear your vaccinated chicks will infect your flock; however, you need to be aware that your flock can still infect your vaccinated chicks who can develop severe symptoms of Marek's before the vaccination subdues any possible tumors.

It is generally best to keep small chicks away from the adult flock until they are of laying age...at a minimum of 16 weeks, at an optimum of 20 to 24 weeks of age...to protect them from being infected from the flock.
Lady of McCamley

Sources:
http://www.examiner.com/article/how...mareks-disease-michigans-small-chicken-flocks
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/39918/mareks-vaccine/30
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ps030

I love all the beautifully, big, bird-filled brains on here! I learn something new every time I am on! Thanks!!

 

[Peach Mom]

Here are 3 of my 4 chicks. 3 Lav Am and one black. I am keeping one pullet and rehoming the others when they are older.

They are so precious!

 

[daniellea2912]

The Marek's vaccine does not create a contagious bird. It is a mild form of the virus that triggers the immune response of the bird to keep the tumors in check from the real virus. Therefore the vaccine does not prevent Marek's either. It only prevents the tumors from growing inside the vaccinated bird reducing the symptoms.

Young chicks are vaccinated at a day old because it normally takes about 6 weeks for the tumors to begin to grow and potentially produce the dreaded symptoms. These symptoms typically show up at 6 to 24 weeks in birds who are not vaccinated or who have low natural resistance to Marek's...usually just before or after the stresses of coming into laying. Many think the bird's natural immune system is compromised due to the hormones reducing their natural resistance to keep the tumors in check. EDITED TO ADD: obviously male birds contract the disease too, but there is a higher incidence in females just around the age of lay.

You can vaccinate an older bird with no ill effect to the older bird...but probably no positive effect either...whatever possible tumors the bird may already have in place will not be reduced by the vaccination...therefore people typically don't vaccinate older birds because it is often a waste of money and effort since they likely have already contracted the virus and obviously have been fending it off with natural resistance.

Many birds are naturally resistant to Markes; many of us keep flocks of naturally resistant birds and do not vaccinate.  It is a preference.

Once a bird contracts the true Marek's virus, it will be a carrier for life. Many flock owners purposely breed from flock members who have survived Marek's and lived to thrive as they show they have a natural resistance to the disease. Marek's is not passed vertically, from hen to egg; therefore embryos in the shell will not contract Marek's from the mother but can obtain her genetic natural resistance.

Currently, the vaccine used is either a Turkey virus derivative or a more recent chicken strain derivative...however the vaccination program is inadvertently naturally selecting for more virulent forms of Mareks...ie Mareks that is especially virulent and not reduced by the vaccine is making a rise.

So you needn't fear your vaccinated chicks will infect your flock; however, you need to be aware that your flock can still infect your vaccinated chicks who can develop severe symptoms of Marek's before the vaccination subdues any possible tumors.

It is generally best to keep small chicks away from the adult flock until they are of laying age...at a minimum of 16 weeks, at an optimum of 20 to 24 weeks of age...to protect them from being infected from the flock.
Lady of McCamley

Sources:
http://www.examiner.com/article/how...mareks-disease-michigans-small-chicken-flocks
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/39918/mareks-vaccine/30
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ps030

Thanks everyone who replied! So from what I understand- if the broody mother was ever exposed to Mareks it doesn't matter if she was vaccinated or not she could be a carrier? I have had my flock a year and never seen signs but it makes me nervous to give chicks to my broody now

 

[Lady of McCamley]

Thanks everyone who replied! So from what I understand- if the broody mother was ever exposed to Mareks it doesn't matter if she was vaccinated or not she could be a carrier? I have had my flock a year and never seen signs but it makes me nervous to give chicks to my broody now

There is a risk to the chick from exposure by the broody mother, but if you vaccinate your chicks, they should be fine (once the vaccine takes effect). They may also be fine even if you don't vaccinate them.

I haven't been vaccinating, and I broody hatch, because I hatch only a few at a time, and you can only buy the vaccine (in my area) online in lots of 1,000. The vaccine is cheap, but the shipping is exorbitant...about $50 because it has to be over-nighted and ice packed....AND I would have to time it so that I had it on hand, in the fridge, ready when they hatched and give it to them at preferably one day of age...definitely within the first week. In my small batches, often only 6 chicks at a time, it makes the vaccine about $10 a chick for which I throw out almost all of it as you cannot keep it more than a few hours in the fridge.

So...I try to alternate with buying vaccinated chicks from the feed store and fostering them and then hatching chicks which are not vaccinated but (hopefully) Marek's resistant by choosing eggs from farms I know and breeders I trust (Using the NPIP program guideline can help that way).

Some day I may see half my flock wiped out (the non-vaccinated half)....or not. It is one of the challenges of keeping a small backyard flock of chickens.

I think it helps a LOT to use solid bio-security, ie never purchasing older birds or bringing in a rescue or ill bird, and only hatching from eggs or purchasing chicks that have been vaccinated. Keep your brooding hutch separate from your main flock, and your babies away from the dander dust of the main flock until they are at least 16 weeks old. (I do choose to integrate later to give the chicks time to build up their immune systems...remember Marek's typically hits between the ages of 6 weeks and 25 weeks, with the greatest number of occurrence of symptoms being at the point of lay).

Also keeping optimum overall health conditions for the flock goes a long way so that their natural immune systems do their job. De-worm regularly, keep clean food, water, and litter, with no over-crowding or cramped quarters. Remove any animals or situations that over stress your birds. A happy bird is a healthy bird.

Remember, a lot of birds have a natural resistance to Marek's...simply being a bird may mean you carry Marek's but it does not mean you have deadly tumors as the body naturally fights the virus...sort of like some people come down with cold sores all the time while others never do yet both may carry the virus and the virus is around us in the environment.

Another thing to consider, and it may be why I have not had any issues to date, raising a turkey poult or two with your chickens may help. It is an old farm trick. Some even use turkey feathers as the virus is carried in the feather dander. Turkeys frequently (but not always) carry the Turkey strain of the virus which frequently does little harm to the Turkey and when caught by your chicken will act as a Marek's immune builder (remember the turkey strain is used in many of the vaccines). We raised turkeys with our chickens early on, so I may just have some of that dander in the coop area yet. It is important to remember that makes an assumption that the young turkeys are carriers of the turkey strain. It is also important to remember that the benefit goes towards the chicken. The chicken may gain immunity from Marek's, but the chickens typically harbor cecal worms which are natural carriers of the protazoa for Blackhead disease (Histomonas) which is deadly to turkeys but often not overly harmful to chickens. We kept our poults away from the chickens until they were 8 weeks (?) of age, and the let them run with the flock.

It is something each flock owner needs to weigh the pros and cons and make the best decision for their own flock.

Good luck.
Lady of McCamley

Again, let me refer to this article as a good source:
http://www.examiner.com/article/how...mareks-disease-michigans-small-chicken-flocks

as well as the BYC article referred by another poster:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/a/the-great-big-giant-mareks-disease-faq

 

[Peach Mom]

Well... we have more broody news....

we have a total of 5 broodies right now... Rosie has her 3 week olds... Frannie is due next week... Gracie is waiting for eggs and Connie and Bess hatched Friday night to Saturday morning.

Fertility was a major issue with the breeder's eggs I had gotten for Connie and Bess (he is replacing them for me though when we get more broodies, so all is good).... so they each hatched 2 Silver Pencil Rocks and 1 black mix.

Connie and Bess were raised in the same clutch by one of our broodies last year. They were only 8.5 months old when they went broody themselves... Bess first, then Connie a week or so later. We gave them their eggs at the same time though and set them into their own little area...

This little corner allowed them more quiet time than the main coop area, but they shared it with Rosie and her chicks and the other birds would frequently visit to see what goodies the broodies were hoarding.

Eventually we had hatching and of course they were adorable...
Connie

Bess

As you can tell from the picture above the hens were close together and frequently we heard them 'chatting' back and forth during their brooding time...
Connie's little ones were a few hours ahead of Bess's and hopped out of the nest on their own a bit early to explore.


I guess the little blonde chipmunk figured she'd head to the neighbors to see if they had better snacks...
. Bess was happy to share... and the little black chick was trying to figure out if it was OK to play or not...

DH and I were glad to see the lack of aggression and lack of 'freaking out' with the hens... we knew both were calm birds... but broody hormones aren't to be underestimated.... their tolerance of each other's chicks was making it look like coop accommodations would be easier to figure out.

So... DH went out to open the coop this morning and check on the babies... and came rushing back in asking for the camera... so back out we went, camera in hand while he is telling me about finding.... this....

. I guess the easiest way to handle chicks roaming back and forth between nests is to just join nests!!
They were happy as can be with the chicks running around between the two of them!
But their area really wasn't very large, and since Rosie moved to the main coop area with her little ones we decided to move Connie and Bess to the broody hut. Thankfully these two hens are very cooperative and used to us silly humans doing things... so we moved them and all of the babies into the broody hut and within a few minutes we had this...







and now... hours later... they are still happy as can be... though Mindy is a bit bummed because her view isn't nearly as good now!

and DH says... 'if I'd known they were going to do this I would have gone to Tractor Supply and gotten them more chicks!'....

I can only hope that my two broodies do so well. This is just precious! The golden keeping watch just ices the cake...adorable!

 

[cheepcheep riri]

@ Johnn
I have 1 week to go too. Did yours start on the 5th or 6th?
@ TeaChick
Now 19
I was checking on broody when I saw an egg that momma had pushed out. It had no top on and, knowing it was dead, took it out and looked at it. It has the features of a chick even

 

[cheepcheep riri]

the black down. I was on day 13. I had no idea that they would grow that fast!

But you know what you just have to be grateful for what you have. Right 19 isn't that bad........

 

[daniellea2912]

There is a risk to the chick from exposure by the broody mother, but if you vaccinate your chicks, they should be fine (once the vaccine takes effect). They may also be fine even if you don't vaccinate them. 

I haven't been vaccinating, and I broody hatch, because I hatch only a few at a time, and you can only buy the vaccine (in my area) online in lots of 1,000. The vaccine is cheap, but the shipping is exorbitant...about $50 because it has to be over-nighted and ice packed....AND I would have to time it so that I had it on hand, in the fridge, ready when they hatched and give it to them at preferably one day of age...definitely within the first week.  In my small batches, often only 6 chicks at a time, it makes the vaccine about $10 a chick for which I throw out almost all of it as you cannot keep it more than a few hours in the fridge.

So...I try to alternate with buying vaccinated chicks from the feed store and fostering them and then hatching chicks which are not vaccinated but (hopefully) Marek's resistant by choosing eggs from farms I know and breeders I trust (Using the NPIP program guideline can help that way).

Some day I may see half my flock wiped out (the non-vaccinated half)....or not. It is one of the challenges of keeping a small backyard flock of chickens.

I think it helps a LOT to use solid bio-security, ie never purchasing older birds or bringing in a rescue or ill bird, and only hatching from eggs or purchasing chicks that have been vaccinated.  Keep your brooding hutch separate from your main flock, and your babies away from the dander dust of the main flock until they are at least 16 weeks old. (I do choose to integrate later to give the chicks time to build up their immune systems...remember Marek's typically hits between the ages of 6 weeks and 25 weeks, with the greatest number of occurrence of symptoms being at the point of lay).

Also keeping optimum overall health conditions for the flock goes a long way so that their natural immune systems do their job. De-worm regularly, keep clean food, water, and litter, with no over-crowding or cramped quarters. Remove any animals or situations that over stress your birds. A happy bird is a healthy bird.

Remember, a lot of birds have a natural resistance to Marek's...simply being a bird may mean you carry Marek's but it does not mean you have deadly tumors as the body naturally fights the virus...sort of like some people come down with cold sores all the time while others never do yet both may carry the virus and the virus is around us in the environment.

Another thing to consider, and it may be why I have not had any issues to date, raising a turkey poult or two with your chickens may help. It is an old farm trick. Some even use turkey feathers as the virus is carried in the feather dander. Turkeys frequently (but not always) carry the Turkey strain of the virus which frequently does little harm to the Turkey and when caught by your chicken will act as a Marek's immune builder (remember the turkey strain is used in many of the vaccines). We raised turkeys with our chickens early on, so I may just have some of that dander in the coop area yet. It is important to remember that makes an assumption that the young turkeys are carriers of the turkey strain. It is also important to remember that the benefit goes towards the chicken. The chicken may gain immunity from Marek's, but the chickens typically harbor cecal worms which are natural carriers of the protazoa for Blackhead disease (Histomonas) which is deadly to turkeys but often not overly harmful to chickens. We kept our poults away from the chickens until they were 8 weeks (?) of age, and the let them run with the flock.

It is something each flock owner needs to weigh the pros and cons and make the best decision for their own flock.

Good luck.
Lady of McCamley

Again, let me refer to this article as a good source:
http://www.examiner.com/article/how...mareks-disease-michigans-small-chicken-flocks

as well as the BYC article referred by another poster:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/a/the-great-big-giant-mareks-disease-faq

Thank you very much for all the info! I am at least more informed now. I kinda feel like there's no right answer but at least I understand it all enough to decide.

 

[jc12551]

I think you trim below the vent on the roosters, and above the vent on the hens.

I have to agree with TeaChick about the ratios, but would like to expand a bit on the housing arrangement and breeding management.

If you have 3 hens with 4 roosters, that's three too many roosters. In that type of hen:rooster ratio, the hens are horribly overbred, but the breeding is rarely successful because the roosters are so competitive. They knock each other off the hens, or they fight on top of the hens, or they triple stack, or any number of other things. They try to breed so quickly that they can't get the job done, and the hens are stressed out to the max. Hopefully, the hens don't get injured too severely, but they almost always get scratches and other wounds under the feathers, when they have any feathers left.  But realistically, they're miserable, day after day after day.

If, on the other hand, you have 3 hens to each of 4 roosters, so 12 hens total, then there could still be a problem, depending on how you have them housed.  You have the potential to have 4 separate quads, 3 hens to each rooster, which would work well.  The emphasis for success here is separate.  Multiple males together only work in certain circumstances, and even then two males together is usually the maximum, especially if they are the same age.  When there are 4 males together, all the same age, they don't look over the chicken yard and say, "OK, let's decide who gets who -- I'll take the 3 girls on the right, you take the ones by the waterer, you take the ones that are eating, and you take the ones on the left."  They're just not that organized!!  Each rooster wants ALL the hens for himself.   So you're back to the same problem as if you only had 3 hens, but now there's just more hens to dilute out the misery of being with 4 roosters at the same time.

There are, of course, exceptions.  I have three roosters sharing a two acre yard with 19 hens, but it didn't start out that way.  Two of the roosters and 5 of the hens are very elderly.  The original 7 were inherited as an established and bonded flock from my father-in-law.  Even though the ratio was quite rooster heavy, the two roosters had long ago worked out everything between them, and the submissive rooster was not allowed to breed the hens.  If he tried, the dominant rooster knocked him off and disciplined him, and that was a very rare event.  The flock had a large and interesting area to roam, so no one was stressed or injured.  When the original flock was 4 years old, I added 14 hens and one rooster, of a totally different breed from the original flock.  When the young rooster was about 5 months old, the dominant older rooster had a long "talk" with him over a few days, and that settled out all issues.  By the time the young flock was breeding, the young rooster knew not to even consider approaching the older hens, and the older roosters had no interest in the younger hens (which really surprised me, but some chickens like to stay with their own kind).  Everyone had plenty of room to spread out and plenty of things to do, and they returned to separate coops at night, so sharing a free range environment was not a problem. But this is the exception, and probably only worked because the dominant rooster was old enough to have some judgment but still young enough to enforce it when the young rooster came around.  Now that the dominant rooster is 6 years old and arthritic and the young rooster is 2 years old and in the prime of life, the social balance may change soon, but so far the younger rooster is still quite respectful of the older one.  Again, more the exception than the rule, possibly because they have so much room, so much cover, and have their own, well-established harems.  Really, what's there to fight over???

So if you have 3 hens per rooster, you probably need to give each quad its own setup to get decent fertility.  While that may take up a lot of space and be a lot of work, there are huge advantages.  First, your birds, both the roosters and the hens, will have a much better quality of life.  The hens won't be constantly mauled by competing males, and the males won't be constantly trying to outdo each other, so they can strut around all happy as the king of their own little harem.  Second, you'll be able to have a much better breeding program.  If all hens are breeding with all roosters, you have no way to even know if one of your males is sterile, much less evaluate the genetics of any of your birds to select for improvement.  It's just a free-for-all where you hope you get some nice chicks, but you have no way to influence the process.

If, on the other hand, you have 3 hens total with four rooster, you really need to either get rid of some of those roosters, or get a lot more hens and set up trios or quads.  Since you're on the broody thread, I should add that it would be extremely difficult for a broody to incubate a clutch with 4 roosters stirring around, and only 2 remaining hens to keep them occupied.  In all likelihood the gang of roosters would be repeatedly jumping on the broody, or at least stressing her out to the point that she leaves the nest prematurely, so even if you had all fertile eggs they wouldn't hatch in that scenario.

Excellent post, thank you.

I will come back to this tomorrow when I am on a computer and not my phone so I can explain further.

I do however have a new broody! It is her first time and she is some kind of silkie/cochin/? cross. We will move her tomorrow night to the broody shed and then set her up with either some EE eggs or some black sex link eggs (whoever lays tomorrow!). She is tiny so I think three at most. She is currently setting on bantam eggs but I don't want those to hatch. This is what I do with all my bantams and the only time they hatch their own is when Red and her two girls sneak off.

Unfortunately the one missing girl hasn't come back and it has been 3.5 weeks. Maybe she will bring me a surprise bunch of babies, maybe I will never see her again. I did find where Red is prepping a new nest so when she goes broody I can move her too.