Ongoing Brahma Projects Thread

[Cfmills]

Thanks big medicine. I wonder how many people have splash laced gold while thinking they have buff laced gold.

 

[big medicine]

Thanks big medicine. I wonder how many people have splash laced gold while thinking they have buff laced gold.

I would think very few to none. If they get any gold laced (black laced gold) from the breedings, they don't have splash.

 

[bumpercarr]

I have a question that I haven't seen answered before. The chick that I hatched in the fall looked like it had vulture hocks to me, but now that it has grown up a bit it turns out that they are of the soft variety, not a disqualification but not desirable either.

I think that this gene may be attached to or modified by the gene that controls the amount of feathering on the feet. The reason for my thinking is that both the mother and father of this chick are very heavily feathered on their feet...much heavier than any other brahmas that I've ever had.

Does anyone have any experience with this? I'm a little worried that it may be present in more of the flock since most of the pullets are related in some way to the father of the chick that hatched this fall (or not). The rest of the pullets that I have do not show heavy feathers on their feet, at least not like this pair. What I'm wondering is if I breed to clean hocked and unrelated birds, do you think this will show up again down the road or will it dilute to the point that it is just a cull not a significant problem?

I'm thinking that this gene may be one of the complicated genes, takes a combination of genes and their locations to show up, but I'm just guessing based on the little I know. Let me know your thoughts.

 

[big medicine]

I have a question that I haven't seen answered before. The chick that I hatched in the fall looked like it had vulture hocks to me, but now that it has grown up a bit it turns out that they are of the soft variety, not a disqualification but not desirable either.

I think that this gene may be attached to or modified by the gene that controls the amount of feathering on the feet. The reason for my thinking is that both the mother and father of this chick are very heavily feathered on their feet...much heavier than any other brahmas that I've ever had.

Does anyone have any experience with this? I'm a little worried that it may be present in more of the flock since most of the pullets are related in some way to the father of the chick that hatched this fall (or not). The rest of the pullets that I have do not show heavy feathers on their feet, at least not like this pair. What I'm wondering is if I breed to clean hocked and unrelated birds, do you think this will show up again down the road or will it dilute to the point that it is just a cull not a significant problem?

I'm thinking that this gene may be one of the complicated genes, takes a combination of genes and their locations to show up, but I'm just guessing based on the little I know. Let me know your thoughts.

It's been a while since I've had to deal with it, (and hopefully will never again). But yeah I think there may be a combination of three genes and modifiers that are involved with the degree of leg/foot feathering. A quick glance at the Asiatic class gives you the extremely heavily feathered shanks of the Cochins( which I am fairly certain most show lines harbor vulture hocks under all that fluff), the Brahmas, and the lightly feathered shanks of the Langshan.

What I always went by was if a chick showed hock feathers at a similar time and size as when starting wing feathers, that bird went into the swap pen, with a full explanation of what it was when sold as a back yard layer. .

I also had a few of these tweeners that showed themselves later, not classic vulture hocks, but had this soft extra fluff that should not be there. I always erred on the side of caution and again into the swap pen. But yes, they tended to have heavier feathered feet than average, but not as heavy as full blown vulture hocked birds

Being that these traits are recessive, I would say you have a valid concerns regarding their possible reemergence in a breeding pool with common ancestry.

 

[bumpercarr]

It's been a while since I've had to deal with it, (and hopefully will never again). But yeah I think there may be a combination of three genes and modifiers that are involved with the degree of leg/foot feathering. A quick glance at the Asiatic class gives you the extremely heavily feathered shanks of the Cochins( which I am fairly certain most show lines harbor vulture hocks under all that fluff), the Brahmas, and the lightly feathered shanks of the Langshan.

What I always went by was if a chick showed hock feathers at a similar time and size as when starting wing feathers, that bird went into the swap pen, with a full explanation of what it was when sold as a back yard layer. .

I also had a few of these tweeners that showed themselves later, not classic vulture hocks, but had this soft extra fluff that should not be there. I always erred on the side of caution and again into the swap pen. But yes, they tended to have heavier feathered feet than average, but not as heavy as full blown vulture hocked birds

Being that these traits are recessive, I would say you have a valid concerns regarding their possible reemergence in a breeding pool with common ancestry.

The tweeners is what I think I'm dealing with and I think you are right, they need to go into the cull pen as they emerge.

I am breeding completely unrelated lines, darks over the golds (golds are where this showed up). I think the distance between the darks and their cochin ancestry should ensure (let's say 90-95% or so) that the combination of genes have diluted enough to not be a serious concern. The golds are much closer in ancestry, I would guess less than 10 generations, away from their cochin ancestry. From what I've seen and read, almost everyone that started working on the gold partridge started with cochins x dark brahmas (or imported, which was worse). I'll also have to be careful to select breeders that don't have that cochin plate feathered foot (although I sort of like it, makes them walk like the North Korean military). I don't see it as much in the females, the males almost all had those feet, only about 10% of the females (but I have a much smaller male pool).

I just reread the standards for both the brahma and the cochin and you are right, the cochin standard actually calls for the hock feathers to curve around the hock (but be soft) and the brahma standard does not. These are definitely the feathers that I am dealing with in some of my gold stock.

If it is two genes involved, about 16% of the offspring will carry the gene and not show the result. If it is three genes involved, only about 8% of the offspring will carry the gene and not show the result. But line breeding and having the poor luck (or lack of knowledge) to pick a mating that has the carrying alleles would throw it right back into the gene pool.

I'm going to have to mull this over a bit. I don't think it will change my thoughts about this year's breeding, but it may change what my plans are for the next breeding. I may want to put the best split over unrelated dark pullets/hens just to reduce the chances of passing this two or three related genes on in the pool. Just so happens that I might be able to make that happen with what I have in the pen right now. I was thinking that I wouldn't use my gold cockerel this year, I don't particularly like him. But, I may need to use him over my dark pullets and then cross the two lines next year. He's not related to the rest of the golds, and I've never seen these soft curving feathers in any of the birds from his line. Like I said, I need to mull this over for a bit.

As always, your experience and knowledge is a huge help.

 

[big medicine]

The tweeners is what I think I'm dealing with and I think you are right, they need to go into the cull pen as they emerge.

I am breeding completely unrelated lines, darks over the golds (golds are where this showed up). I think the distance between the darks and their cochin ancestry should ensure (let's say 90-95% or so) that the combination of genes have diluted enough to not be a serious concern. The golds are much closer in ancestry, I would guess less than 10 generations, away from their cochin ancestry. From what I've seen and read, almost everyone that started working on the gold partridge started with cochins x dark brahmas (or imported, which was worse). I'll also have to be careful to select breeders that don't have that cochin plate feathered foot (although I sort of like it, makes them walk like the North Korean military). I don't see it as much in the females, the males almost all had those feet, only about 10% of the females (but I have a much smaller male pool).

I just reread the standards for both the brahma and the cochin and you are right, the cochin standard actually calls for the hock feathers to curve around the hock (but be soft) and the brahma standard does not. These are definitely the feathers that I am dealing with in some of my gold stock.

If it is two genes involved, about 16% of the offspring will carry the gene and not show the result. If it is three genes involved, only about 8% of the offspring will carry the gene and not show the result. But line breeding and having the poor luck (or lack of knowledge) to pick a mating that has the carrying alleles would throw it right back into the gene pool.

I'm going to have to mull this over a bit. I don't think it will change my thoughts about this year's breeding, but it may change what my plans are for the next breeding. I may want to put the best split over unrelated dark pullets/hens just to reduce the chances of passing this two or three related genes on in the pool. Just so happens that I might be able to make that happen with what I have in the pen right now. I was thinking that I wouldn't use my gold cockerel this year, I don't particularly like him. But, I may need to use him over my dark pullets and then cross the two lines next year. He's not related to the rest of the golds, and I've never seen these soft curving feathers in any of the birds from his line. Like I said, I need to mull this over for a bit.

As always, your experience and knowledge is a huge help.

I tell you what, for possibly being a mole for the silky crowd, you surely are doing your groundwork.

 

[bumpercarr]

I tell you what, for possibly being a mole for the silky crowd, you surely are doing your groundwork.

I just love silkies!

 

[big medicine]

That is what had Tim and I concerned when some woman nobody knew spoke up at the club meeting at the national about possible improvements to the club web page. Perfect way to infiltrate and sabotage the club and Brahma people nation wide.

Speaking of Tim, haven't heard anything out of him lately. Do your people know anything about that ? He would be easy to set up. Call in some phony propane emergency, say a little old lady is running low in some remote Texas badlands, and the temperature is forecast to get clear down in 40's, you couldn't keep him from going. You know how those guys are, God, guns, and propane (and propane accessories of course).

 

[bumpercarr]

My people....LOL. I haven't seen him lurking recently either. He's been on the ABC facebook page....he may have gone over to the dark side, you know, raising silkies or something like that. Are silkies really chickens? I know you've asked before when a Brahma is no longer a Brahma.....when is a chicken no longer a chicken?

 

[Huntress78]

It's been a while since I've had to deal with it, (and hopefully will never again). But yeah I think there may be a combination of three genes and modifiers that are involved with the degree of leg/foot feathering. A quick glance at the Asiatic class gives you the extremely heavily feathered shanks of the Cochins( which I am fairly certain most show lines harbor vulture hocks under all that fluff), the Brahmas, and the lightly feathered shanks of the Langshan.

What I always went by was if a chick showed hock feathers at a similar time and size as when starting wing feathers, that bird went into the swap pen, with a full explanation of what it was when sold as a back yard layer. .

I also had a few of these tweeners that showed themselves later, not classic vulture hocks, but had this soft extra fluff that should not be there. I always erred on the side of caution and again into the swap pen. But yes, they tended to have heavier feathered feet than average, but not as heavy as full blown vulture hocked birds

Being that these traits are recessive, I would say you have a valid concerns regarding their possible reemergence in a breeding pool with common ancestry.

Was this an issue that just showed up in your flock or did you introduce it?

The reason I ask is because I have birds from a strain with nice hocks and some from another strain with the Cochin type feathering. I hope to keep the clean hocked strain pure but would also like to cross some with the second strain in hopes of getting some specific improvements for a future outcross.

If this was something that just showed up in your flock and was difficult to get rid of then I may not even try a cross.