Paint Project

[MumsyII]

The four partridge/chipmunk colored chicks showing distinct color patterns. One chick has a narrower brown center back patch and a large vaulted skull. I think it's a female on a hunch. It has a brown small diamond in the center of the black diamond on her neck. The other three chicks have larger black diamonds on their necks and the center back patch is black and wider too.
Two chicks have brownish/Dunish under color and two chicks have more of a cream/Dunish color. Last chick to hatch has taped legs to fix the splay.

 

[MumsyII]

While I struggle to wrap my head around understanding Dominate White v Recessive White, some genetics begin to slowly creep in. I give credit to Sonoran Silkies and Tim Adkerson for the generosity of their combined knowledge shared on BYC and other chicken related forums I often frequent.

I can understand breeding recessive whites together create an OFF switch for color. The color of the chick down can and does vary wildly from strain to strain but every chick I've ever hatched out from this pairing produced 100% white offspring.

Breeding recessive White to any color gives multitudes in variety of colors and most are muddy versions in my experience. It all depends what is the hidden genotype under the recessive White.

Dominate White is more complex. This is an explanation that makes sense to me. This by Tadkerson

" Dominant white causes a construction error in the vesicles. The dominant white gene prevents the proper construction of the vesicles (plastic bags) that transport the black pigment to the follicle. The construction error prevents the black pigments from being transported into the cells that make the feathers. The bird can make black pigment, it is not transported into the cells that make the feathers.
Red pigment is different. The construction error does not effect the transfer of the red pigment. That is why dominant white birds show red pigment and not black pigment.
You can think of it like this- black pigment comes in big boxes and red pigment comes in small boxes. The small boxes can be transferred but the big boxes can not be transferred. The vesicle is not constructed so it can transfer the big boxes but it will transfer the small boxes.
You can get some black in a bird that that only carries one dominant white gene because not all of the vesicles are improperly constructed so some feathers can be black.
You can get red in a bird that has one or two dominant white genes because the construction of the vesicles does not effect the transfer of the red pigment."

This from Sonoran:
Recessive white is indeed an offswitch. At the cellular level it prevents the formation of all pigment. It can be leaky, allowing a bit in occasionally on a feather here or there, but overall is pretty non-leaky. Dominant white, on the other hand works differently, and is very leaky. It is more like a filter than an offswitch--it doesn't prevent pigment from forming, but it does prevent it from being placed in the feather. One copy prevents black pigment from entering feathers; two copies also prevents red pigment. Exchequer leghorns are leaky dominant white. Red pyle is dominant white."



I can sort of understand how this would apply to Paints. And how Red Pyle pops up in some Paint pairings.

This information will help me in putting these Paint x Recessive White F1 into future breeding pens. Half of these fifteen chicks are of a Partridge type that will go into the free ranging layer flock. I like Partridge but not the muddy kind. Two are Black/Dark Blue (they haven't feathered out completely) two are Paint, and three are what appear incomplete Dominate White. It is those last three that I really wonder about. If I put them in my all white breeding pens, will they introduce Red Pyle type markings? Not something I care for. Will they be valuable in a Paint pen? I could see how the offspring would get lighter and lighter in the skin and over all lose Silkie traits that call for slate.

That's the thing about project breeding. What to do with the surplus.

 

[Fur N Feathers]

Is this red pyle? I have just called him my red paint.

 

[MumsyII]

That looks like autosomal red leakage. Did he come from a recessive white x Paint mating? If the red feathers are red all the way down the feather shaft to the skin, then that would seem like Red Paint to me but I'm not sure. But then again, he has black feathers from the holes typical for paint. A pen of matching birds from him would sure be pretty. I wonder how that male would do crossed to Lavender? Would the Lav gene dilute the black spots and the red? Red Pyle has a pattern on males that is head, hackle, saddle, and wing patch. Although on silkies, I'm not sure how that pattern would look.
I'm personally trying to keep autosomal red out of my strains and won't breed any that show it. They will go into the free range layer flock. It's just my own sense of aesthetics in my breeding.

I'm not against all red. Actually I would like to start a Red Silkie project using my bantam RIR hens. But what I want is more mahogany than autosomal red.

If your Red Paint male can reproduce himself on a paint x paint or paint x recessive white hen, than I would make a pen of his kind and show them AOV. But then again, what about the black spots?

Paints and breeding them give more questions than answers! Hah!

Edited to add this thread: https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...ld-anyone-correctly-identify-the-color-please

 

[Fur N Feathers]

His Daddy is the CatDance lavender roo and his mother is O. Momma. Some of the red feathers go to the skin just like the black feathers do. But some are just frosting. I like him and always forget to count him when counting my paints though he is one. Duh!

 

[MumsyII]

His Daddy is the CatDance lavender roo and his mother is O. Momma. Some of the red feathers go to the skin just like the black feathers do. But some are just frosting. I like him and always forget to count him when counting my paints though he is one. Duh!

This is fascinating. So Lavender which is the great diluter of color, did not dilute the red in your red paint male?!

Not much is known about autosomal red which I understand is expressed Ar+. Is it one gene or more? I can't find the answer to that yet. So it is this unidentified red and Lavender didn't dilute it. Curiouser and curiouser. There have been great chicken geneticist minds working on the mystery for decades. As if trying to understand Paint wasn't hard enough!

 

[Fur N Feathers]

Isn't that the truth!!!

Correct! It did not dilute. I do not have a red rooster nor a blue as was suggested on another thread. The only rooster I had of breeding age at that time was my lavender boy. I have another boy I posted in the silkies of a different color thread that has a lot of orange red color frosting as well - he also has the lavender Daddy. He is the boy that I am hoping will be porcelain.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Quote:
Lavender has no affect unless two copies are present, so having one lavender parent will not produce lavender diluted offspring. Autosomal red does not have an agreed upon abbreviation as it is not really known what all genes might be involved. Some do use Ar. The bird is similar looking to red pyle.

 

[MumsyII]

Dominate white in the Paint then allowed the red leakage? The little I've gathered on the red leakage in paints is that it is not considered a variety called red paint. Otherwise wouldn't all the spots be red? No black feathers?

Most of what I've found online about this was written three or four years ago. Red pyle coloring was my first thought on seeing Fur N Feathers male too.

Thank you Sonoran for your input. Most of what I'm learning online about color genetics is from your posts. Reading about it is one thing. Applying the knowledge in the breeding pen quite another.

 

[Fur N Feathers]

Ah Ha! So I am NOT crazy and nothing is wrong with my lavender rooster!!!!! Whew, that makes me feel so much better. Thank you Sonoran!

Mumsy, I talked specifically with our district judge a couple of different times about AOV varieties. He said because of the nature of the beast "All Other Varieties" is the melting pot of the color pools. A paint is a paint, no matter the color that pops through the white. Until it is an accepted and recognized color anyone can basically call AOV's anything. This can be a real problem as it is in Porcelain right now. Some people are entering them as porcelain, some as self blue cream, and some as blue cream. Judges will mark them as three different color varieties instead of one. If everyone can get on the same page, the color can get in the books and accepted with greater numbers if everyone uses the same color name. I think the Silkie club voted on it and they decided on "blue cream".

Anyway, my blue paint roo has a couple of black feathers but the majority of his spots are blue. He is still called blue paint. So, until the powers that be say otherwise, I will still call him my red paint. He is my first and only with this color so far. They may end up calling them appaloosa silkies and not mentioning the color of the spots at all, who knows?