One cross on lavender will give you splits(a bird that carries lavender but does not express it) then you have to cross those offspring together that carry lavender to get a percentage of porcelian. Not all will be porcelain.
Porcelain Color
- Thread starter Celtic Hill
- Start date
One cross on lavender will give you splits(a bird that carries lavender but does not express it) then you have to cross those offspring together that carry lavender to get a percentage of porcelian. Not all will be porcelain.
Ian,
basically it's buff columbian X mottled/spangled X lavender
so yes it's a lavender mille fleur.
It's way easier to just type it down to do this and that and your there, but the real world, creating a new color in a breed is far from that simple. Every little cross which is so quick to type out is a full year of your time, then you have to mark each bird so you know what it carries, raise that bird to breeder age, then cross it again, and repeat. Here's the full detailed plan for what you are after.
lavender is recessive ( as is mottling) so when you breed a mille to a lavender bird you arent going to get anything but black right off
you'll have to back breed these black chicks to get both the mottled and the lavender to come back out, plus you'll have to get the buff columbian pattern back too.
There will be tons of culling as you will get mostly the following (rmember this is year 2 already) Good thing is, all these will be true colors if you wanted to work with each of them later on.
solid black
black mottled
solid lavender
lavender mottled
then you will also get
buff columbian
milles
lavender columbian
porcelains
bb red
and spangled
the lavender bb red
and lavender spangled
Being that you'll be working with 2 recessive genes here, all those will come in split versions too, some will be split for lavender and mottled, some of the lavender will be split for mottled, some of the mottled will be split for lavender and so on...
It's not going to be an easy quick deal, especially if you are working with a very limited supply of birds just due to all the variables and 2 recessive genes, it makes for tons of possible out comes. Plus at this phase, you will have no idea who is split for what and how is just what is is expressing visually.
A quicker route for the COLOR would be a mille crossed to a porcelain. you'd get all milles the first time, they would all be split for lavender, back cross those and you'll have you porcelains...NOW the problem is puring up the type though. Once again, lavender being recessive will make each cross back a 2 year process to help pure up the color. Cross you new 50% pure porcelains back to the original mille bird, and repeat the above process for the color again...
Either way you go, it can take several years. God luck to you on it.
basically it's buff columbian X mottled/spangled X lavender
so yes it's a lavender mille fleur.
It's way easier to just type it down to do this and that and your there, but the real world, creating a new color in a breed is far from that simple. Every little cross which is so quick to type out is a full year of your time, then you have to mark each bird so you know what it carries, raise that bird to breeder age, then cross it again, and repeat. Here's the full detailed plan for what you are after.
lavender is recessive ( as is mottling) so when you breed a mille to a lavender bird you arent going to get anything but black right off
you'll have to back breed these black chicks to get both the mottled and the lavender to come back out, plus you'll have to get the buff columbian pattern back too.
There will be tons of culling as you will get mostly the following (rmember this is year 2 already) Good thing is, all these will be true colors if you wanted to work with each of them later on.
solid black
black mottled
solid lavender
lavender mottled
then you will also get
buff columbian
milles
lavender columbian
porcelains
bb red
and spangled
the lavender bb red
and lavender spangled
Being that you'll be working with 2 recessive genes here, all those will come in split versions too, some will be split for lavender and mottled, some of the lavender will be split for mottled, some of the mottled will be split for lavender and so on...
It's not going to be an easy quick deal, especially if you are working with a very limited supply of birds just due to all the variables and 2 recessive genes, it makes for tons of possible out comes. Plus at this phase, you will have no idea who is split for what and how is just what is is expressing visually.
A quicker route for the COLOR would be a mille crossed to a porcelain. you'd get all milles the first time, they would all be split for lavender, back cross those and you'll have you porcelains...NOW the problem is puring up the type though. Once again, lavender being recessive will make each cross back a 2 year process to help pure up the color. Cross you new 50% pure porcelains back to the original mille bird, and repeat the above process for the color again...
Either way you go, it can take several years. God luck to you on it.
- Thread starter
- #13
ahah thanks Aubrey, you know where Im going with this, but I think I'll wait for a while!
Yes, I've seen pictures of her birds on the Ameraucana club forum. She's got two males now, right? The pictures I saw were really pretty.
- Feb 19, 2012
- 7
- 1
- 8
Porcelain is a difficult color to perfect. There are many things working against you. If you are the type that has the time and patience to make one, then figure on 4 to 5 years and several hundred chicks. You might be close then. It then might take you another 5 to 6 years to get rid of the junk that comes with it. Here is a list of things that will give you problems:
Lavender – this is required in a homozygous state because the alleles are recessive. Without them you go nowhere. Finding a solid Lavender bird in the breed you wish to make a Porcelain in is really tough. Each year that becomes less of a problem because more breeders are bringing the alleles in.
Black – Most solid lavenders are black based (either EE or Er). That in and of itself is not bad, because in the F2s they will be gone (some of them). The problem lies in the fact that the melanins will come along for the ride in the non-blacks from this cross. Therefore, most of your F2s will be very lavender (lavender replacing the melanotic black pigments.
Wing patch – Lavender is linked to “bad baggage” this is one of them. This phenotype shows in the male’s wings and looks horrible.
Ragged feathering – Again, another bad linked gene to lavender. The phenotype is exactly as the name suggests and shows mostly in females.
Narrow feathers – Lavender based birds have narrower primary feathers. This gives the bird an appearance of not being to “type” and somewhat loosely feathered. It also causes brittle tail feathers in males.
Ticking – Lavender is not a really good gene to make feather color consistent. Many lavender birds will show darker ticking throughout.
Wrong base color - This is a big one. Unless you work to a point of F3 and go back to the proper base and get two more generations, you will battle off-colored Porcelain. With that said, you still might fail.
Mottling – You need to bring in the mottling alleles in a homozygous state. As others have said, for Porcelain you need homozygous mottling and lavender at the same time. It’s a statistic’s game getting them both and losing the black alleles (including the melanins). Color consistency – crossing one breed to another brings in a ton of modifiers that were used to perfect the colors in that breed. They do not always get along with your new plans for a completely different color.
Your best bet to create Porcelain is to AI a real Porcelain bird from an excellent show quality line and cross to a bird in your type breed that is the color of ginger. This way, the original Porcelain breeder has probably removed much of the bad baggage.
I have a porcelain project that I have been working on for several years. They are VERY large birds with a lot of bells and whistles. I had to drop back to tighten the base color and dilute the bad baggage. So far, I have hatched 7 Porcelains this year and I have more on the way. I do not expect to be selling any this year, as I need to assess the progress on the bad baggage. If it looks like I didn’t make any progress, then the color will be discontinued. When they are done, they will look like giant Porcelain Sultans. I should have a handful this year.
Good luck
Lavender – this is required in a homozygous state because the alleles are recessive. Without them you go nowhere. Finding a solid Lavender bird in the breed you wish to make a Porcelain in is really tough. Each year that becomes less of a problem because more breeders are bringing the alleles in.
Black – Most solid lavenders are black based (either EE or Er). That in and of itself is not bad, because in the F2s they will be gone (some of them). The problem lies in the fact that the melanins will come along for the ride in the non-blacks from this cross. Therefore, most of your F2s will be very lavender (lavender replacing the melanotic black pigments.
Wing patch – Lavender is linked to “bad baggage” this is one of them. This phenotype shows in the male’s wings and looks horrible.
Ragged feathering – Again, another bad linked gene to lavender. The phenotype is exactly as the name suggests and shows mostly in females.
Narrow feathers – Lavender based birds have narrower primary feathers. This gives the bird an appearance of not being to “type” and somewhat loosely feathered. It also causes brittle tail feathers in males.
Ticking – Lavender is not a really good gene to make feather color consistent. Many lavender birds will show darker ticking throughout.
Wrong base color - This is a big one. Unless you work to a point of F3 and go back to the proper base and get two more generations, you will battle off-colored Porcelain. With that said, you still might fail.
Mottling – You need to bring in the mottling alleles in a homozygous state. As others have said, for Porcelain you need homozygous mottling and lavender at the same time. It’s a statistic’s game getting them both and losing the black alleles (including the melanins). Color consistency – crossing one breed to another brings in a ton of modifiers that were used to perfect the colors in that breed. They do not always get along with your new plans for a completely different color.
Your best bet to create Porcelain is to AI a real Porcelain bird from an excellent show quality line and cross to a bird in your type breed that is the color of ginger. This way, the original Porcelain breeder has probably removed much of the bad baggage.
I have a porcelain project that I have been working on for several years. They are VERY large birds with a lot of bells and whistles. I had to drop back to tighten the base color and dilute the bad baggage. So far, I have hatched 7 Porcelains this year and I have more on the way. I do not expect to be selling any this year, as I need to assess the progress on the bad baggage. If it looks like I didn’t make any progress, then the color will be discontinued. When they are done, they will look like giant Porcelain Sultans. I should have a handful this year.
Good luck
Reviving this thread as I want to start a Porcelain Orpington project. I have Jubilee and Mottled Lavenders that I am growing out, so I will breed them together and have splits for the first generation, then breed those together to get 25% porcelains from those splits. Correct? I am at least ahead that I have Mottled Lavender, so I don't have to worry about getting that gene in there.
- Feb 11, 2012
- 19
- 2
- 23
Can't speak too highly of this thread. Thanks so much - all you need to know!
But what do they look like??????
Just like a mille fleur except that black is blue and the red is a cream color
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