Pullets legs don't work

[CzyChikenMath]

Hi.
We had a chicken who we 'thought' slipped in muddy area last weekend (barred photo below), the joint felt/looked separated and we ended up putting her down because we didn't want to see her go slowly. She was about 3-4 months old. No other illness symptoms besides couldn't use legs and what we thought was dislocated hip. We did separate her as soon as we saw. She was a different breed from current ill pullet.

Today we found another who cannot use her front legs. We separated and treating for vitamin deficiency, in house - afraid to bring in company of another bird in case it's contagious/Mereks or other. New to chickens this year, my BF (an EMT - too bad chickens have such diff problems than people), thinks maybe Merek's, but I do reseacrch all the time and there are so many problems for chickens.

We do not get vaccines (but realized after this original post some of our birds were vaccinated. We want to build a flock with natural strong immunities, and have no carriers (I guess I messed that up with some vaccinated and some not - even with quarantine - can someone confirm that please). So no new birds to our flock in the last at least 45 days. (yes, they can come in contact with wild birds.)

This one 3-4 months also. We put in the pool only for clear photo, took right out (We are aware she needs traction). She was free ranging previous. Also feed commercial blend w/probiotics. Ellectrolyes and fresh produce given regularly. Great appetite on her. No runny nose (although a different plot in flock was sneezing a couple days Monday and Tuesday last week)

My bad-All chickens have diarrhea now (forgot to switch to from 20% to lower protein after molting), so that doesn't help diagnose. (seems like, and I've read, excess protein causes diarrhea (like too much BOSS) although some say it's never a problem for them. My mix is heritage breeds and some like leghorns) ... would Merek's show signs more than 1 week apart? Any advice on helping this little girl? The rest of flock is well. Here are a couple photos. Thank you for taking the time to read.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Yes, I'm sorry to say it does sound like Marek's.

Though, birds only have front legs.

Sadly, I treated for Vitamin deficiency also great appetite and no other symptoms and chick survived 2 weeks only for me to decide I can't care for a crippled bird and I had to cull. Marek's could show signs more than 1 year apart. Have you checked out this article...
https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/the-great-big-giant-mareks-disease-faq.66077/

You are correct, I wouldn't bring in company... and nor would I try to save the bird at this point. No reason for vitamin def since you feed a balanced ration, barring worms or genetics. But your symptoms say marek's, to me.

I don't know what lower protein has to do with diarrhea... I feed my flock 20% protein flock raiser year round.

Though diarrhea is definitely an issue if your whole flock has it. What color? Might be worth taking a sample to the vet for float and check for worms load and species count.

Maybe consider sending your bird for necropsy if you do cull or it passes, in order to get a confirmation of cause or see if there may be something else at play. It is often low or no cost...
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/how-to-send-a-bird-for-a-necropsy-pictures.799747/

https://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/nahln/downloads/all_nahln_lab_list.pdf

I also don't vaccinate for Marek's and as you know vaccination does NOT mean birds won't catch it anyways. Just supposed to mean they have more natural antibodies ion board to fight it when they do get exposed. I also believe in breeding strong birds. Fact is your bird will ALL be carriers of Marek's (if you've had it) and according to the state vet here in CA it is in ALL of north american flocks even if they don't show symptoms.

If left in the flock, she may already be dead. After reading this article...
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/tthis-chicken-vaccine-makes-virus-dangerous/

My sincere suggestion is cull right away. More than that... it's my reality and I have culled at least 1 bird 2 weeks after I culled my first case... so 4 weeks after the first presentation. It was especially hard for me to cull a bird I worked so hard to save.

Now I'm paranoid and watch for the slightest misstep. You'd be surprised how many can have a numb or dead leg when they get up from dirt bathing and such. (60 birds here)

Please note that you don't have to add new birds for Marek's to show up at your place. It can be brought in by other birds visiting. And it doesn't mean a death sentence for your whole flock.

Imagine my surprise when I found out NPIP doesn't include Marek's.. talk about false sense of security by buying NPIP birds. Though I know it doesn't pass from hen to egg.

Anyways, I'm sure your head is spinning. I know mine was!

Finally, don't just go off what I say. Shortly after losing a hen to egg binding I mistook a broody for egg bound and after violating her for no reason decided I HAD to let her raise chicks. So my recent experience might have me a little jumpy. Better safe than sorry IMHO.

Hope your girl feels better!

 

[Ravynscroft]

If left in the flock, she may already be dead. After reading this article...
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/tthis-chicken-vaccine-makes-virus-dangerous/

That article is complete misinformation, just fyi... Marek's vaccine is made from turkey strain of Marek's, not chicken strain... and it is a 'killed' virus used... the vaccine is not leaky, but it does give a sense of false security as it will only ever mask symptoms not keep them from contracting the virus in the first place...

 

[CzyChikenMath]

Yes, I'm sorry to say it does sound like Marek's.

Though, birds only have front legs.

Sadly, I treated for Vitamin deficiency also great appetite and no other symptoms and chick survived 2 weeks only for me to decide I can't care for a crippled bird and I had to cull. Marek's could show signs more than 1 year apart. Have you checked out this article...
https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/the-great-big-giant-mareks-disease-faq.66077/

You are correct, I wouldn't bring in company... and nor would I try to save the bird at this point. No reason for vitamin def since you feed a balanced ration, barring worms or genetics. But your symptoms say marek's, to me.

I don't know what lower protein has to do with diarrhea... I feed my flock 20% protein flock raiser year round.

Though diarrhea is definitely an issue if your whole flock has it. What color? Might be worth taking a sample to the vet for float and check for worms load and species count.

Maybe consider sending your bird for necropsy if you do cull or it passes, in order to get a confirmation of cause or see if there may be something else at play. It is often low or no cost...
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/how-to-send-a-bird-for-a-necropsy-pictures.799747/

https://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/nahln/downloads/all_nahln_lab_list.pdf

I also don't vaccinate for Marek's and as you know vaccination does NOT mean birds won't catch it anyways. Just supposed to mean they have more natural antibodies ion board to fight it when they do get exposed. I also believe in breeding strong birds. Fact is your bird will ALL be carriers of Marek's (if you've had it) and according to the state vet here in CA it is in ALL of north american flocks even if they don't show symptoms.

If left in the flock, she may already be dead. After reading this article...
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/tthis-chicken-vaccine-makes-virus-dangerous/

My sincere suggestion is cull right away. More than that... it's my reality and I have culled at least 1 bird 2 weeks after I culled my first case... so 4 weeks after the first presentation. It was especially hard for me to cull a bird I worked so hard to save.

Now I'm paranoid and watch for the slightest misstep. You'd be surprised how many can have a numb or dead leg when they get up from dirt bathing and such. (60 birds here)

Please note that you don't have to add new birds for Marek's to show up at your place. It can be brought in by other birds visiting. And it doesn't mean a death sentence for your whole flock.

Imagine my surprise when I found out NPIP doesn't include Marek's.. talk about false sense of security by buying NPIP birds. Though I know it doesn't pass from hen to egg.

Anyways, I'm sure your head is spinning. I know mine was!

Finally, don't just go off what I say. Shortly after losing a hen to egg binding I mistook a broody for egg bound and after violating her for no reason decided I HAD to let her raise chicks. So my recent experience might have me a little jumpy. Better safe than sorry IMHO.

Hope your girl feels better!

thank you. I will look at links. I know if we get it it will take it's toll, but from what I researched to date, it is still a better way to build a flock. you are 4 weeks in? I guess I better fasten my seat belt. I know it can't pass to humans, but just want to double check if that is it, meat and eggs are still ok? they were wormed (D/E) about 2 weeks ago for the first time.. just because I want to keep natural immunities high. 60 birds i quite a bit. I feel you there. I use to keep them in 3 separate areas, but with so many it was decided, fairly by the people who do the most work with them, they should be put in one area. Nightmares can happen .... necropsy is a good idea. I don't drive.. I'll have to see if I can do it with a preserved body. yes, haha 2 front legs. this is when our going natural is hardest. well it's not like an antibiotic would help anyway. I have somewhere between 200-250 birds. Yes, I am going to remove my favorites tomorrow and serrate to a new area... hopefully not to late, but most likely it will be if Mereks is the problem. I've heard 20% to the entire flock can be wiped out. Some I received as gifts had been vaccinated. The ones I got from hatcheries weren't. I can't remember about the farm ones I purchased, but they are hardy. I initially quarantined, but trying to think clearly, I guess the carriers w/vaccines might have still been a cause (as I know song birds could too). Did I royally mess that up-about having some vaccinated and some not? So far the 2 sick did not have vaccines so that could make sense Good luck with your flock!

 

[Ravynscroft]

If it is Marek's, no there is no risk to you or your family's health... only risk is spreading to other poultry... also, it is strictly spread through the dander, it is not transmitted vertically (through the egg to and unhatched chick)... but the virus lives in the dander on the ground for years...

Also, DE is not an effective dewormer... I would look into more effective ones like Valbazen or Safeguard if you do have worm issues... fecal float would confirm or dispel worm overloads...

 

[CzyChikenMath]

If it is Marek's, no there is no risk to you or your family's health... only risk is spreading to other poultry... also, it is strictly spread through the dander, it is not transmitted vertically (through the egg to and unhatched chick)... but the virus lives in the dander on the ground for years...

Also, DE is not an effective dewormer... I would look into more effective ones like Valbazen or Safeguard if you do have worm issues... fecal float would confirm or dispel worm overloads...

Thank you. I don't think I have worm issues, but when this passes I will look into a fecal float. I guess we better break out the heavy duty scrubbing tomorrow for what it's worth. I also realize this ground build-up is supposed to encourage natural resistance (if it doesn't kill them first). I contacted the state poultry expert early on and was told I can't have my ground tested (I forget why - maybe too small a poultry farm).... Thanks for confirming that eggs and meat are safe for humans Ravynscroft.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

That article is complete misinformation, just fyi... Marek's vaccine is made from turkey strain of Marek's, not chicken strain... and it is a 'killed' virus used... the vaccine is not leaky, but it does give a sense of false security as it will only ever mask symptoms not keep them from contracting the virus in the first place...

Good morning.

Yes, I understand that most Marek's vaccines are DEAD turkey strains. And also that just like with ANY article I see you have to take the good with the bad and discern the difference.

I simply don't want symptoms masked and rather have it's toll taken and move forward with birds who have a natural resistance and without the false sense of security.

@Charlie's Chickens I agree DE is ineffective as wormer for MANY reasons... like it being a soft porous rock that grinds down in the gizzard before ever making it to the intestinal tract. As well as it is said to be useless against bugs after it becomes wet even by morning dew. If you read down on the wikipedia page it states that actual control tests were performed with and without DE used as wormer and there was NO significant difference verses using NOTHING. I love the idea of keeping it natural, but ONLY if it works... and natural poison is still poison to me.

You don't have to wait until your bird passes to get a float done. Since you say many birds have lose stools now.. I would do a group sample and take it in.

While eggs and meat are safe to eat... in the US it is illegal to eat a bird that has tumors. That's assuming you or the processor would even recognize a tumor. I know I probably wouldn't myself with my current experience.

Note it has been 8 weeks since my first case and 4 weeks since my 2nd. Both were silkie or silkie cross.

I thought I had a lot of birds, you really do!
Hope y'all recover quickly.

 

[CzyChikenMath]

Good morning.

Yes, I understand that most Marek's vaccines are DEAD turkey strains. And also that just like with ANY article I see you have to take the good with the bad and discern the difference.

I simply don't want symptoms masked and rather have it's toll taken and move forward with birds who have a natural resistance and without the false sense of security.

@Charlie's Chickens I agree DE is ineffective as wormer for MANY reasons... like it being a soft porous rock that grinds down in the gizzard before ever making it to the intestinal tract. As well as it is said to be useless against bugs after it becomes wet even by morning dew. If you read down on the wikipedia page it states that actual control tests were performed with and without DE used as wormer and there was NO significant difference verses using NOTHING. I love the idea of keeping it natural, but ONLY if it works... and natural poison is still poison to me.

You don't have to wait until your bird passes to get a float done. Since you say many birds have lose stools now.. I would do a group sample and take it in.

While eggs and meat are safe to eat... in the US it is illegal to eat a bird that has tumors. That's assuming you or the processor would even recognize a tumor. I know I probably wouldn't myself with my current experience.

Note it has been 8 weeks since my first case and 4 weeks since my 2nd. Both were silkie or silkie cross.

I thought I had a lot of birds, you really do!
Hope y'all recover quickly.

Lost another

Good morning.

Yes, I understand that most Marek's vaccines are DEAD turkey strains. And also that just like with ANY article I see you have to take the good with the bad and discern the difference.

I simply don't want symptoms masked and rather have it's toll taken and move forward with birds who have a natural resistance and without the false sense of security.

@Charlie's Chickens I agree DE is ineffective as wormer for MANY reasons... like it being a soft porous rock that grinds down in the gizzard before ever making it to the intestinal tract. As well as it is said to be useless against bugs after it becomes wet even by morning dew. If you read down on the wikipedia page it states that actual control tests were performed with and without DE used as wormer and there was NO significant difference verses using NOTHING. I love the idea of keeping it natural, but ONLY if it works... and natural poison is still poison to me.

You don't have to wait until your bird passes to get a float done. Since you say many birds have lose stools now.. I would do a group sample and take it in.

While eggs and meat are safe to eat... in the US it is illegal to eat a bird that has tumors. That's assuming you or the processor would even recognize a tumor. I know I probably wouldn't myself with my current experience.

Note it has been 8 weeks since my first case and 4 weeks since my 2nd. Both were silkie or silkie cross.

I thought I had a lot of birds, you really do!
Hope y'all recover quickly.

Lost another today. The ones we lost so far I feel sick about especially knowing more will come but I also know that they're not the ones I thought were the hardiest. Thank you for your help

 

[CzyChikenMath]

Good morning.

Yes, I understand that most Marek's vaccines are DEAD turkey strains. And also that just like with ANY article I see you have to take the good with the bad and discern the difference.

I simply don't want symptoms masked and rather have it's toll taken and move forward with birds who have a natural resistance and without the false sense of security.

@Charlie's Chickens I agree DE is ineffective as wormer for MANY reasons... like it being a soft porous rock that grinds down in the gizzard before ever making it to the intestinal tract. As well as it is said to be useless against bugs after it becomes wet even by morning dew. If you read down on the wikipedia page it states that actual control tests were performed with and without DE used as wormer and there was NO significant difference verses using NOTHING. I love the idea of keeping it natural, but ONLY if it works... and natural poison is still poison to me.

You don't have to wait until your bird passes to get a float done. Since you say many birds have lose stools now.. I would do a group sample and take it in.

While eggs and meat are safe to eat... in the US it is illegal to eat a bird that has tumors. That's assuming you or the processor would even recognize a tumor. I know I probably wouldn't myself with my current experience.

Note it has been 8 weeks since my first case and 4 weeks since my 2nd. Both were silkie or silkie cross.

I thought I had a lot of birds, you really do!
Hope y'all recover quickly.

Lost another

Good morning.

Yes, I understand that most Marek's vaccines are DEAD turkey strains. And also that just like with ANY article I see you have to take the good with the bad and discern the difference.

I simply don't want symptoms masked and rather have it's toll taken and move forward with birds who have a natural resistance and without the false sense of security.

@Charlie's Chickens I agree DE is ineffective as wormer for MANY reasons... like it being a soft porous rock that grinds down in the gizzard before ever making it to the intestinal tract. As well as it is said to be useless against bugs after it becomes wet even by morning dew. If you read down on the wikipedia page it states that actual control tests were performed with and without DE used as wormer and there was NO significant difference verses using NOTHING. I love the idea of keeping it natural, but ONLY if it works... and natural poison is still poison to me.

You don't have to wait until your bird passes to get a float done. Since you say many birds have lose stools now.. I would do a group sample and take it in.

While eggs and meat are safe to eat... in the US it is illegal to eat a bird that has tumors. That's assuming you or the processor would even recognize a tumor. I know I probably wouldn't myself with my current experience.

Note it has been 8 weeks since my first case and 4 weeks since my 2nd. Both were silkie or silkie cross.

I thought I had a lot of birds, you really do!
Hope y'all recover quickly.

Lost another today. The ones we lost so far I feel sick about especially knowing more will come but I also know that they're not the ones I thought were the hardiest. Thank you for your help

 

[Ravynscroft]

Lost another

Lost another today. The ones we lost so far I feel sick about especially knowing more will come but I also know that they're not the ones I thought were the hardiest. Thank you for your help

I would send it in to your state lab for necropsy...