Questions on DE.. Help Please!

[PunkinPeep]

I use d.e. because it is less work. When my coop starts to stink, i can put a few good scoops of d.e. in the bedding - let the chickens stir it up - and have an almost instantly cleaner-smelling coop.

I've never used anything else, as i am pretty new to this process and haven't really experimented. Does the lime work kind of the same way? How do you use it and how do you buy it?

I like that the presence of d.e. cuts down on the presence of mites, etc., but i'm not sold on some of the applications, such as feeding it to the chickens (or the people). I'm not convinced it's quite the cure-all it is made out to be. But i do really like the way it makes my coop smell. And the chickens seem to like it to. Here in East Texas, it's pretty much always humid, so d.e. is my friend.

 

[millebantam]

It's obvious that you are "anti-DE", but there is a flaw to your theory on this response. When wet, DE will lose it's ability to dehydrate, but moisture will not prevent it from cutting. If you want to test your theory, submerse your arm in a bucket of water and slide a razor blade across your skin. Just a guess here, but I'm pretty sure that it will cut.









Quote:
That might be true if it were dry, but it loses its cutting abilities as soon as it gets too wet.
It kills insects by cutting through their "waxy" coating, and dehydrating them.

 

[PunkinPeep]

Quote:
I like d.e., and i don't know for sure what the scientific facts are concerning d.e.'s qualities are wet or dry. But this particular line of logic is flawed. The razor continues to cut when wet because its structure is not affected by the water. If the d.e.'s structure is affected by water (and i think it is) then it is possible that its insecticide properties would fail. Like i said, i don't know, but the razor analogy doesn't work.

 

[millebantam]

In order for the structure to be affected, it would have to be water soluble. Since it is 86% silicon dioxide, ie. "sand". Is the sand in your area water soluble?

 

[PunkinPeep]

Quote:
I was trying to find information about d.e. in order to give an educated response, but i'm having trouble. Do you have a reference for that 86% sand content?

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

It's obvious that you are "anti-DE

I'm not "anti DE"
I'm pro facts

Your razor analogy is not realistic when discussing microscopic particles in liquid.
But feel free to post any scientific studies that show DE remains an effective insecticide when wet.
I've posted data to back my statements​

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

Does the lime work kind of the same way? How do you use it and how do you buy it?

Lime will absorb moisture and neutralize ammonia. You spread it just as you would DE
It can be bought in bulk or in bags, and is usually less than $5 for 40 lbs
Make sure it's AG or pelletized lime and NOT "hydrated" lime.
Hydrated lime is caustic and generates heat when wet​

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

Do you have a reference for that 86% sand content?

The typical chemical composition of diatomaceous earth is 86% silica, 5% sodium, 3% magnesium and 2% iron.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatomaceous_earth

Silica is Silicon Dioxide:

The chemical compound silicon dioxide, also known as silica (from the Latin silex), is an oxide of silicon with a chemical formula of SiO2 and has been known for its hardness since antiquity. Silica is most commonly found in nature as sand or quartz, as well as in the cell walls of diatoms. Silica is the most abundant mineral in the Earth's crust.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_dioxide​

 

[millebantam]

The rules are simple here. You stated that moisture would affect it's "cutting" ability. So in essence, you are stating as fact that moisture changes it's physical structure. I'll be waiting for you to provide "scientific studies" to back up your initial statement.

Here's just one little "snipet" of a scientific study which explains that DE will "aggregate" when wet, but states nothing about it's changing it's physical structure. I will agree that it's effectiveness as an insecticide will be compromised when wet, but that is due to it's inability to absorb, not because it changes structure.


.Some of the DE dusts listed in Table 1 such as Perma Guard and Harper Valley
Diatomaceous Earth contain fresh water diatoms, while others such as Insecto and
Insectigone contain salt-water diatoms (see Korunic 1998, Korunic and Ormesher
2000). Dryacide and Protect-It differ from other DE dusts in one respect. They
contain silica gel, and are therefore called as enhanced DE dusts because of their
greater effectiveness on insects compared with materials that contain just the DE
(Korunic and Ormesher 2000). Dryacide contains silica gel 3% by weight, and the
DE particles are coated with the (fluorinated) silica gel, whereas in Protect-It silica
gel (10% by weight) is admixed with the DE.
In the United States, most DE dusts are registered with the US-EPA as
substantially similar products, despite wide differences in their insecticidal potency
(McLaughlin 1994). The US-EPA requires safety, but not biological efficacy data
for registering insecticide products. Since DE dusts damage the epicuticular waxes
of insects (Ebeling 1971), and since all insects have epicuticle, it has been argued
that all DE dusts, therefore, should be effective on insects (Peter Winn, personal
communication). However, registrants generally have supporting biological efficacy
data on their specific DE dusts. Countries such as Canada require proof of biological
efficacy on pests for all registered products (Martha Farkas, personal
communication). DE dusts can be legally applied to various sites to control insects
(Table 2). There is very little data to justify the use of DE dusts on various sites to
control a wide variety of insect pests.
Many different species or orders of insects are listed as being susceptible to
specific DE dusts, despite lack of objective information documenting effectiveness
against the listed species. Besides insects, slugs, sow bugs, millipedes, scorpions,
spiders, mites (dust mite, cheese mite) and ticks (Lone star tick, Gulf coast tick,
American dog tick, and Brown dog tick), and lice are listed as organisms susceptible
to DE. Non-stored product insect species listed as being susceptible to DE include:
fleas, firebrats, silverfish, elm leaf beetle, housefly, boxelder bug, ants, cockroaches,
crickets, earwigs, termites, book louse, carpenter bees, hornets, yellow jackets, bed
bugs, and a wide range of insect pests associated with field and vegetable crops, fruit
trees, turf, and ornamentals.
DeCrosta (1979) cites several testimonials from users regarding DE efficacy on
slugs and garden insects without any scientific proof. However, the article cites that
more scientific studies are needed to validate efficacy claims, and also emphasizes
that DE is not a panacea. While the low mammalian toxicity of DE may be
appealing to organic gardeners or organic growers, DE is by no means a panacea for
all pest problems. The US-EPA recommends that the language on DE labels for
garden use specifically suggest that such use will interfere with photosynthesis or
plant growth. For garden use, high DE rates and repeated applications may be
necessary for satisfactory insect control, because the DE particles aggregate when
they become wet due to transpiration from leaves or due to ambient conditions (high
relative humidity (RH) and rain).

I've got lot's more, pertaining to it's use in hydroponics and liquid filtration, and none of them state that it physically changes.
Quote:
I'm not "anti DE"
I'm pro facts

Your razor analogy is not realistic when discussing microscopic particles in liquid.
But feel free to post any scientific studies that show DE remains an effective insecticide when wet.
I've posted data to back my statements

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

The rules are simple here. You stated that moisture would affect it's "cutting" ability. So in essence, you are stating as fact that moisture changes it's physical structure. I'll be waiting for you to provide "scientific studies" to back up your initial statement.

I never said it "changed the structure". Those are your words.
Your own source confirms my statement about it "losing it's cutting ability", which is what I DID say, and you acknowledged above

Particles clumped together due to dampness will not cut the way DRY individual particles will. To be most effective, they need to enter at the joints in the insects exoskeleton
It kills by dehydration, so it cannot "dehydrate" if it's already wet.

http://www.dirtdoctor.com/organic/garden/view_question/id/21/

DE makes a very effective natural insecticide. The insecticidal quality of DE is due to its absorptive properties. When DE comes in contact with the insects, the powdery DE absorbs the body fluids causing death from dehydration. Said more simply, DE kills insects by drying ‘em up. You will see how drying DE as if you handle it with bare hands

DE has no insect killing power while it is wet.

From your source:

DeCrosta (1979) cites several testimonials from users regarding DE efficacy on
slugs and garden insects without any scientific proof

There is very little data to justify the use of DE dusts on various sites to
control a wide variety of insect pests.

Many different species or orders of insects are listed as being susceptible to
specific DE dusts, despite lack of objective information documenting effectiveness
against the listed species.

You made a good argument against something I NEVER SAID, but your source does more to prove there is no scientific evidence to support DE as being effective.

In fact, your own source corroborates what I DID say, in that DE is NOT an effective insecticide when wet:

For garden use, high DE rates and repeated applications may be
necessary for satisfactory insect control, because the DE particles aggregate when
they become wet due to transpiration from leaves or due to ambient conditions (high
relative humidity (RH) and rain).​