Red Silkie Genetics? Buff vs Red Genetics?

[hannahsocal]

Hello!
I’m planning on working on a line of red silkies. It seems like there is a lot of confusion out there on the red/buff genetics, so I’m HOPING () someone can shed some more light on how it actually works. My limited understanding is that buff genes have red diluters and red genes (as in RIRs) have no diluters. Somehow, the buff genetics made a way for the black part of the RIR colouring to disappear. Is there a way to get rid of the black parts of a RIR while keeping the bird all RED and not buff?

My ultimate goal is to create red silkies with no black colouring - basically an even shade of the beautiful RIR colour. Is this genetically possible? I have a nice RIR female I’m planning on using in my F1 gen cross. Should I use a buff Silkie male to cross or a different colour Silkie? Would the buff genes dilute the RIR colouring beyond what is helpful, or would it solve itself when I breed the RIR x buff Silkie F1 cross back to a parent? By breeding the cross back to a buff male though, would that dilute the red? Would it be better to breed a RIR female to a silkie of a non-buff colouring? Maybe a black or something? I’d love some advice on this project if anyone has any! Thanks! I’ve attached a photo I found online of what I’m going for eventually. Not sure if this photo is doctored or if it’s actually possible to breed a beautiful vibrant even shade of red on a Silkie.

 

[The Moonshiner]

I've done this breeding but only with my leghorns so I'd assume the genes are the same.
My birds were the same. The buffs were a pure buff throughout and my reds had black tails and maybe a black feather or two in the wings.
From what I found you're correct. Buffs carry a dilute gene that turns the red to buff. And there's a gene that takes away the black in the tails.
When I crossed the two of course the offspring had one dilute gene and one non dilute gene. They were a color in-between buff and red but closer to red then buff.
They also split the gene for removing the black tail so they kept some of the black but not as many feathers as the reds started with so again the offspring where in the middle.
I didn't go much further with the project but I did produce further buff birds with the complete black tails as the original reds had so it stands to reason you could also produce reds without any black.
I'd stick to just using the black tailed reds and the solid buffs. There's only the two different sets of genes involved and you could get to solid reds in two generations if you hatch enough chicks.

 

[I Like Turkeys]

I agree with moonshiner, stick to breeding your buffs to your reds, and hatch a lot of chicks.
Buff birds, in comparison to a black tailed red, have the Db gene, which restricts tail and neck blackness, and the Dilute gene- which lightens Them.
Dilute is for sure dominant, and from the chicken calculator Db is too- but i dont know how well it’d express in heterozygous form. Because the dilute gene is dominant, you might have some issues of having the red properly express.
Honestly, I would say cross the silkie and Rhode Island Red, then cross the f1 offspring together and select the darkest red birds to keep, then continually cross back into the buff silkie line, or between the crosses, until you have what you want.
Also- i’d adore an update on how your breeding goes. Red birds are incredibly beautiful in general, and I’d be quite curious to see how your project goes.

 

[hannahsocal]

I agree with moonshiner, stick to breeding your buffs to your reds, and hatch a lot of chicks.
Buff birds, in comparison to a black tailed red, have the Db gene, which restricts tail and neck blackness, and the Dilute gene- which lightens Them.
Dilute is for sure dominant, and from the chicken calculator Db is too- but i dont know how well it’d express in heterozygous form. Because the dilute gene is dominant, you might have some issues of having the red properly express.
Honestly, I would say cross the silkie and Rhode Island Red, then cross the f1 offspring together and select the darkest red birds to keep, then continually cross back into the buff silkie line, or between the crosses, until you have what you want.
Also- i’d adore an update on how your breeding goes. Red birds are incredibly beautiful in general, and I’d be quite curious to see how your project goes.

“Because the dilute gene is dominant, you might have some issues of having the red properly express.”

Yes, that’s one of the things I’m concerned about. If it’s even possible at all to achieve a RIR colour if the diluters just keep coming back and back.

 

[I Like Turkeys]

“Because the dilute gene is dominant, you might have some issues of having the red properly express.”

Yes, that’s one of the things I’m concerned about. If it’s even possible at all to achieve a RIR colour if the diluters just keep coming back and back.

My apologies if I am explaining this poorly; I am not too great at explaining things.
I believe it's possible. That's why I suggested breeding the f1 crosses together; they'll only be heterozygous for the dilution gene, so some of their chicks will have the darker red coloration.

* Using one of those, you could cross two together for 100% more dark reds(but some might be black tailed)
* you could cross it back to a parent(50% buff, 50% red, some will be black tailed)
* or you could cross it back to a buff silkie for birds who should hopefully have a 50% chance of being homozygous for the gene that erases black tails, but otherwise shouldn't be black tailed unless your buffs are heterozygous for that gene. Those would all be buff, but be heterozygous for the buff gene, so able to make red chicks.

Any of these would be fine choices, and in the end the project would take a while to stabilize, but whether you want to focus more on type or color is something up to you.

Let's say this is the first color cross;

You would get these offspring, then breed them together. Your birds may have some differing genes or recessives, but for the sake of simplicity, this are the f1 results.

The calculator gives 32 results for breeding these theoretical birds. Of 32, 6 are the right color, so you'd have an 18.75 chance of hatching the right color. From there, you can go any route to breeding the correct coloration. I don't know how best to recommend that, but it certainly seems possible to me.

I feel like 18.75 may seem low, but honestly, it's achievable to get the right colored chicks. I've got a pen of red BC/silkie crosses and statistically, they have low odds of producing certain recessive phenotypes in their offspring too, but i've seen those such phenotypes pop up fairly regularly. The trick is hatching eggs regularly, and the color will pop up eventually.

 

[hannahsocal]

My apologies if I am explaining this poorly; I am not too great at explaining things.
I believe it's possible. That's why I suggested breeding the f1 crosses together; they'll only be heterozygous for the dilution gene, so some of their chicks will have the darker red coloration.

* Using one of those, you could cross two together for 100% more dark reds(but some might be black tailed)
* you could cross it back to a parent(50% buff, 50% red, some will be black tailed)
* or you could cross it back to a buff silkie for birds who should hopefully have a 50% chance of being homozygous for the gene that erases black tails, but otherwise shouldn't be black tailed unless your buffs are heterozygous for that gene. Those would all be buff, but be heterozygous for the buff gene, so able to make red chicks.

Any of these would be fine choices, and in the end the project would take a while to stabilize, but whether you want to focus more on type or color is something up to you.

Let's say this is the first color cross;
View attachment 3499695
You would get these offspring, then breed them together. Your birds may have some differing genes or recessives, but for the sake of simplicity, this are the f1 results. View attachment 3499697
The calculator gives 32 results for breeding these theoretical birds. Of 32, 6 are the right color, so you'd have an 18.75 chance of hatching the right color. From there, you can go any route to breeding the correct coloration. I don't know how best to recommend that, but it certainly seems possible to me.

I feel like 18.75 may seem low, but honestly, it's achievable to get the right colored chicks. I've got a pen of red BC/silkie crosses and statistically, they have low odds of producing certain recessive phenotypes in their offspring too, but i've seen those such phenotypes pop up fairly regularly. The trick is hatching eggs regularly, and the color will pop up eventually.

AMAZING!!! Thank you for such a detailed explanation! This is very helpful!!

Other than colour, the other obstacle is breeding to the Silkie SOP. So if the starting buff male is a silkie adhering “perfectly” to the SOP (theoretically), I could still theoretically get reds that look more like him with your 50% offspring calculation)?

 

[The Moonshiner]

Can you not find red silkies or just not as dark as you'd like?

 

[Somewhere_In_The_Clouds]

I am just here to follow and learn. Buff vs red in silkie has been confusing for me too. I had this silkie rooster who I alway thought was buff because he was practically the same colour as my buff Sussex, but now I think he was actually red?

 

[hannahsocal]

Can you not find red silkies or just not as dark as you'd like?

They really don’t exist in the USA

 

[The Moonshiner]

I had some years ago.
I believe they came from Ideal Hatchery