Roo Speculation & Barred chicks without barred parents? Can't be right. What do I have here?

[McChooky]

I don't think he is a laced Barnevelder. There is no lacing on him I can see. Some Dutch bred ones may have black breasts but should still have some lacing elsewhere I believe.

Your feathered footed chicks are obviously half Brahma.

My barnevelders did feather out initially with that partridgey juvenile feathering before the lacing came in.

You've got laced chicks I reckon.

Pic of one of my Barnevelders - see lacing.View attachment 3126842

and as chicksView attachment 3126844

Looks 100% like a Welsummer rooster to me( purebred at that)
Simple hatchery mistake.

 

[McChooky]

Looks 100% like a Welsummer rooster to me( purebred at that)
Simple hatchery mistake.

Or a Bernevelder. With no lacing (if thats possible).

 

[NatJ]

I'm a bit late to notice this, but I think I have answers to a few of the points.

I wanted to note that you can't be sure about the parentage with that short a wait time. I have 4 black hens to prove that the sperm can last over 4 weeks sometimes.

True, but for these particular chicks you can mostly check the parentage in other ways.

--Any red chick must have the red rooster as father, and must be a female.
Any red chick with feathered feet has the Dark Brahma hen as mother.
Any red chick with clean legs has one of the Silver Penciled Rock hens as mother.

--Any chick with clean legs should have two clean-legged parents (red father, Rock mother)

--Any chick with feathered legs has at least one parent with feathered legs. A red chick cannot have a Dark Brahma father. A silver chick with feathered legs MIGHT have a Dark Brahma father, or might not.

At this point I feel fairly confident in saying that I think these chicks/pullets are sex links as it seems likely that the handful that hatched with a more blonde colored down (now looking more grey) are looking to be all males, and the chicks with more of a dark brown color seem to possibly all be females. Given the silver genetics that I think should be on the hen side and the red or maybe mahogany color on the roo side, the slightly differing down colors of the chicks I hatched makes sense to me

I agree.

How can these adolescents have what seems to be a barred pattern if there's no barred/cuckoo pattern in the parents' plumage? Since the barred pattern is dominant, shouldn't it be exhibited in the parents, even if they only have "Bb"? And if they both have and passed on "bb", shouldn't it have remained hidden? Can "Bb" be covered over by something else even though barring is dominant? Is this actually not a barred pattern and I've missed something very basic?

As someone else already said, the barring gene causes WHITE stripes on the feathers. Patterns in black/brown always have a different genetic explanation.

@Mattchu How are they looking now that they've had more time to grow?

 

[RoostersAreAwesome]

Hi! First time poster, some time lurker who's had chickens for a little over a year now, and I have a bit of a mystery chicken situation I've been working on.

I started out by ordering 9 chickens, but two were DOA, so I've made do with raising a small flock of 7 for about a year now. My plan was simple: get some Silver Penciled Rocks and some Dark Brahmas, let them grow and breed, enjoy their cool color pattern, and gather eggs and harvest meat.
And that's as far as the plan got because I ended up with three Silver Penciled Rock hens, one Dark Brahma hen, two Dark Brahma roos, and one hatchery mistake who was supposed to be either a Dark Brahma or a Penciled Rock and is still a bit of mystery roo to me. At first I thought he might be a Barnevelder, but now I'm thinking he matches up much better with pics and descriptions of Welsummers -honestly though I'd just love to get the educated guess of someone with some real experience here.

View attachment 3112790
I held onto him because he was the more assertive and agile roo, and I decided I trusted him with the defense of the flock more than I trusted the clunky brahma roos.

View attachment 3112794
View attachment 3112796
^Ms. Guinea's tail feathers have always pointed down like a guinea fowl's (hence her name) She lays regularly and seems healthy and perfectly functional. Just another oddity -but I digress.

View attachment 3112797
(^we'll get to those pullets in a minute)

Earlier this spring I segregated the brahma bros from the main flock to stop the infighting which was intensifying (my roo to hen ratio is just terrible, even without them in the flock), and I hatched a total of 13 chicks in two batches some weeks ago (6 in the 1st group and 7 in the 2nd).View attachment 3112802
They were successfully sneaking some fun time in with the hens once in a while before their removal from the flock which was maybe 1-3 weeks before I began gathering eggs for hatching, but I doubt any of the chicks are theirs.

View attachment 3112822
The problem is my top roo is the genetic oddball in the bunch and likely the sire of all these chicks, but because I don't know what breed he is, it makes understanding the patterns these chicks are beginning to show even trickier. If he was a SPR or DB I'd expect the penciled pattern to be maintained as I had initially planned, but as he's clearly neither of those breeds, things are getting interesting. I don't mind the strange patterns too much as I said, it's all interesting to me, but I'd just like to better understand what's going on. I was casually dipping my toes into how the genetics work by reading responses here, searching on youtube, playing with the kippenjungle chicken calculator and reading the explanations on the calculator site a little on and off pretty early on, but since hatching these chicks I've been digging more seriously, trying to find answers, so I'm gaining a grasp of some basics now.

At this point I feel fairly confident in saying that I think these chicks/pullets are sex links as it seems likely that the handful that hatched with a more blonde colored down (now looking more grey) are looking to be all males, and the chicks with more of a dark brown color seem to possibly all be females. Given the silver genetics that I think should be on the hen side and the red or maybe mahogany color on the roo side, the slightly differing down colors of the chicks I hatched makes sense to me, but the feather patterns they're developing now do not. The pullets seem to have a cuckoo/barred pattern on both their bodies and wings and a laced pattern in the hackles.
View attachment 3112824View attachment 3112826View attachment 3112827
Similar to the pullets, the adolescent roo from the first hatch has (what seems to my newb eyes) a messy barred/cuckoo pattern on his wings. Also, black feathers with a green sheen are coming in on his chest and neck now.
View attachment 3112831
View attachment 3112830
These are from the 2nd hatch, so they're slightly younger. One of the two young roos here was a double yolker inside a rather regular sized egg (probably the slightly smaller one on the far right down below). He had a partially formed twin attached at the umbilical cord. Just a set of fuzzy legs and hips. Named the survivor Mcdouble and the pair of legs Chernobyl. Figured you kinda have to name something like that.View attachment 3112832
View attachment 3112837
The brown chick here isn't quite representative of the others like it; this one is actually particularly brown and makes the difference seem a little more obvious. That said, the blonde-ish color was pretty distinguishable at hatch.


So, any thoughts/ideas as to what my roo is? Does my Welsummer guess seem correct?

How can these adolescents have what seems to be a barred pattern if there's no barred/cuckoo pattern in the parents' plumage? Since the barred pattern is dominant, shouldn't it be exhibited in the parents, even if they only have "Bb"? And if they both have and passed on "bb", shouldn't it have remained hidden? Can "Bb" be covered over by something else even though barring is dominant? Is this actually not a barred pattern and I've missed something very basic? I'm very open to that possibility; it feels like I've been drinking from a firehose since I've upped my research to try and figure out what's going on with these chicks.

If you've made it this far, congrats, and thanks for bearing with me. I just have so many questions, and so many details seem like they could be entangled. Sorry.

The rooster is either a partridge rock or a barnevelder.

 

[TheFatBlueCat]

Now I've raised a bunch of partridge rock chicks myself, your rooster looks like my partridge rock boy, and the feather pattern is what all my young partridge coloured chicks feathered in like. The hens now have their adult plumage coming in and are perfectly penciled as they should be.

 

[Chicks n stuff]

Hi! First time poster, some time lurker who's had chickens for a little over a year now, and I have a bit of a mystery chicken situation I've been working on.

I started out by ordering 9 chickens, but two were DOA, so I've made do with raising a small flock of 7 for about a year now. My plan was simple: get some Silver Penciled Rocks and some Dark Brahmas, let them grow and breed, enjoy their cool color pattern, and gather eggs and harvest meat.
And that's as far as the plan got because I ended up with three Silver Penciled Rock hens, one Dark Brahma hen, two Dark Brahma roos, and one hatchery mistake who was supposed to be either a Dark Brahma or a Penciled Rock and is still a bit of mystery roo to me. At first I thought he might be a Barnevelder, but now I'm thinking he matches up much better with pics and descriptions of Welsummers -honestly though I'd just love to get the educated guess of someone with some real experience here.

View attachment 3112790
I held onto him because he was the more assertive and agile roo, and I decided I trusted him with the defense of the flock more than I trusted the clunky brahma roos.

View attachment 3112794
View attachment 3112796
^Ms. Guinea's tail feathers have always pointed down like a guinea fowl's (hence her name) She lays regularly and seems healthy and perfectly functional. Just another oddity -but I digress.

View attachment 3112797
(^we'll get to those pullets in a minute)

Earlier this spring I segregated the brahma bros from the main flock to stop the infighting which was intensifying (my roo to hen ratio is just terrible, even without them in the flock), and I hatched a total of 13 chicks in two batches some weeks ago (6 in the 1st group and 7 in the 2nd).View attachment 3112802
They were successfully sneaking some fun time in with the hens once in a while before their removal from the flock which was maybe 1-3 weeks before I began gathering eggs for hatching, but I doubt any of the chicks are theirs.

View attachment 3112822
The problem is my top roo is the genetic oddball in the bunch and likely the sire of all these chicks, but because I don't know what breed he is, it makes understanding the patterns these chicks are beginning to show even trickier. If he was a SPR or DB I'd expect the penciled pattern to be maintained as I had initially planned, but as he's clearly neither of those breeds, things are getting interesting. I don't mind the strange patterns too much as I said, it's all interesting to me, but I'd just like to better understand what's going on. I was casually dipping my toes into how the genetics work by reading responses here, searching on youtube, playing with the kippenjungle chicken calculator and reading the explanations on the calculator site a little on and off pretty early on, but since hatching these chicks I've been digging more seriously, trying to find answers, so I'm gaining a grasp of some basics now.

At this point I feel fairly confident in saying that I think these chicks/pullets are sex links as it seems likely that the handful that hatched with a more blonde colored down (now looking more grey) are looking to be all males, and the chicks with more of a dark brown color seem to possibly all be females. Given the silver genetics that I think should be on the hen side and the red or maybe mahogany color on the roo side, the slightly differing down colors of the chicks I hatched makes sense to me, but the feather patterns they're developing now do not. The pullets seem to have a cuckoo/barred pattern on both their bodies and wings and a laced pattern in the hackles.
View attachment 3112824View attachment 3112826View attachment 3112827
Similar to the pullets, the adolescent roo from the first hatch has (what seems to my newb eyes) a messy barred/cuckoo pattern on his wings. Also, black feathers with a green sheen are coming in on his chest and neck now.
View attachment 3112831
View attachment 3112830
These are from the 2nd hatch, so they're slightly younger. One of the two young roos here was a double yolker inside a rather regular sized egg (probably the slightly smaller one on the far right down below). He had a partially formed twin attached at the umbilical cord. Just a set of fuzzy legs and hips. Named the survivor Mcdouble and the pair of legs Chernobyl. Figured you kinda have to name something like that.View attachment 3112832
View attachment 3112837
The brown chick here isn't quite representative of the others like it; this one is actually particularly brown and makes the difference seem a little more obvious. That said, the blonde-ish color was pretty distinguishable at hatch.


So, any thoughts/ideas as to what my roo is? Does my Welsummer guess seem correct?

How can these adolescents have what seems to be a barred pattern if there's no barred/cuckoo pattern in the parents' plumage? Since the barred pattern is dominant, shouldn't it be exhibited in the parents, even if they only have "Bb"? And if they both have and passed on "bb", shouldn't it have remained hidden? Can "Bb" be covered over by something else even though barring is dominant? Is this actually not a barred pattern and I've missed something very basic? I'm very open to that possibility; it feels like I've been drinking from a firehose since I've upped my research to try and figure out what's going on with these chicks.

If you've made it this far, congrats, and thanks for bearing with me. I just have so many questions, and so many details seem like they could be entangled. Sorry.

That is definitely a Welsummer rooster, I think you’re 100% right about him. Possibly a partridge rock.

A Welsummers genotype is e+/e+ (wild type/duckwing/light brown), Mh/Mh, (Mahogany, darkens red). Single comb, yellow legs, etc.
A partridge rock is different, I think they have some form of lacing. But that might make more sense for the chicks pattern.

Speaking of the chicks… The chicks are not B/B or B/b type sexlink barring. The barring “B” is dominated and can not be recessive. Furthermore not one of the breeds you have carries the barring “B” gene.
Your chicks a clearly a form of barring tough. Plain to see, but the “B” barring is specifically white.
For example; barred rocks are E/E (dominant black), B/B (true barring). E, as in eumelanin. Barred rocks would be solid black without their barring.

There are other forms of barred like feathers, example; Db + Pg render autosomal barring, quilt
pattern.
The Pg(pattern gene) plus the Db (Darkbrown) equals a form of non-sexlinked barring-like feathers or a barring lookalike. There are a couple other combinations that results in barring like feathers.
I’m not 100% sure but I think silver penciled rocks have the same alleles as the Dark Brahma.(Speaking only as far as feathers are concerned!). Clearly they are very different in other areas.
I only mentioned it because they have the Dark Brahma on the chicken calculator!!!!

Dark Cornish;
I couldn’t pin down the exact alleles contributing to their color and pattern, they have the Pg/Pg,
They are supposed to have the stippling gene, Sg. Sg in Not on the chicken calculator. Several alleles/genes that effect feathers aren’t on it. But it’s got a lot of good stuff on there. It’s petty great, hopefully they will add more later.

Any way hopefully that explains why your chicks are barred.
I suspect that you are also correct in thinking that the chicks are sexlinked. Welsummer + silver penciled rock, and Dark Cornish + silver penciled rock would make silver males and red/gold females. Aka sexlink.







Link for Dark Cornish info. They sun up the responsibility of lacing as Lg(lacing gene), and there are multiple alleles contributing to laced feathers. So keep that in mind, this is probably information from before we did chromosome analysis and gene sequencing on poultry.



https://pdf.sciencedirectassets.com/776861/1-s2.0-S0032579119X61763/1-s2.0-S0032579119367926/main.pdf?X-Amz-Security-Token=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&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Date=20221207T081643Z&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAQ3PHCVTYUCFYJ3V5/20221207/us-east-1/s3/aws4_request&X-Amz-Signature=05bc531480b60312b37e08bb6b8c811bbfb7243a5a1bcd4b7691ddca1ca630d5&hash=0d29bc8c6c439a9bb3376281831ac9beef7af4f4b4cea1945b05cec604bd5f1d&host=68042c943591013ac2b2430a89b270f6af2c76d8dfd086a07176afe7c76c2c61&pii=S0032579119367926&tid=spdf-4e606aa2-2c0c-4c27-bfb2-936ebdd7912b&sid=b6448f0c3de2654a5e992866f2e6551c871fgxrqa&type=client&ua=52515006025756525458&rr=775bd22218feb062


Breeds calculator, look at the dark Brahma on here.
https://kippenjungle.nl/breeds/crossbreeds.html

 

[Chicks n stuff]

chicken calculator tips!
https://kippenjungle.nl/breeds/crossbreeds.html
if the color type for the breed isn’t listed than the settings for feather color are all set to wildtype. But it will have the breeds other features like shank color and crown type.

 

[NagemTX]

It is saved to bookmarks at the top in the chicken folder.

 

[Chicks n stuff]

Now I've raised a bunch of partridge rock chicks myself, your rooster looks like my partridge rock boy, and the feather pattern is what all my young partridge coloured chicks feathered in like. The hens now have their adult plumage coming in and are perfectly penciled as they should be.
View attachment 3204271

Do you have a picture of a fully matured partridge rock Rooster and hen?
Also, what do they look like as chicks? Do they look similar to welsummer chicks?
I am learning about the influences that effect the color and patterns of chick down.

 

[NatJ]

Do you have a picture of a fully matured partridge rock Rooster and hen?
Also, what do they look like as chicks? Do they look similar to welsummer chicks?

Some hatcheries have photos of adults and chicks. Examples:
https://www.mcmurrayhatchery.com/partridge_rocks.html
https://www.cacklehatchery.com/product/partridge-plymouth-rock/

And feathersite is a good source of photos for many breeds. They have some Partridge adults and chicks on their Plymouth Rock page:
https://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGP/Rocks/BRKRocks.html