Quote:
well heritage breeds SHOULD be close to the standard
Thats what cubalaya said
well heritage breeds SHOULD be close to the standard
Thats what cubalaya said
Sandhill Preservation Center - Breeds
- Thread starter SFIcelandics
- Start date
- Jul 21, 2010
- 3,788
- 15
- 181
Quote:
well heritage breeds SHOULD be close to the standard
Thats what cubalaya said
well I thought he ment other birds not delawares........
well heritage breeds SHOULD be close to the standard
Thats what cubalaya said
well I thought he ment other birds not delawares........
- Jul 21, 2010
- 3,788
- 15
- 181
Quote:
I know you were at the NEBC show. A lot of birds there were bought from sandhill. The quality on some birds were exceptional!
If your going to buy from a hatchery, do it from sandhill
no , more hatchery buying for me lol
I saw some buff cochins from sand hill in the For Sale section and I didn't really take a goos look at them........ I was more interested in my SPPR bantams
punky
I know you were at the NEBC show. A lot of birds there were bought from sandhill. The quality on some birds were exceptional!
If your going to buy from a hatchery, do it from sandhill
no , more hatchery buying for me lol
I saw some buff cochins from sand hill in the For Sale section and I didn't really take a goos look at them........ I was more interested in my SPPR bantams
punky
Quote:
I know you were at the NEBC show. A lot of birds there were bought from sandhill. The quality on some birds were exceptional!
If your going to buy from a hatchery, do it from sandhill
Sometimes what you see in ONE show does not mean they are exceptional. Even a local show which one or two breeders of a popular breed would win everything across the board and when they go to another show, most likely "National Regional poultry show", they may or may not win as much as they did locally or smaller shows. Judges pick out the BEST of the two different birds of the same breed in the only class they have even when the winning bird will or would not win successfully at a "national" poultry show.
For example, I remember one lady going to a show, bought "Best of Breed" rooster and he was the only breed shown under ONE breeder. So that breeder won most of the ribbons under the breed category. The roo himself was not the greatest specimen, got some faults that I would never use for breeding but this lady insist that her roo WAS the best in the show and the breeder SOLD her the roo! Now most breeders will NOT sell their best roo, they would use him for breeding and when they have enough of his offsprings, they may consider selling him later. Alot of the members of the club was disgusted with this lady thinking she got the BEST roo but really she does not and tried to have the "breeders name insert" lines. There is no such line nor she will succeed. The roos faults were these, his comb was too big and too beefy, his tips were too triangle-y, too much black stripes in neck feathers and body shaped like a Leghorn when this breed supposed to be a "brick shaped". She went on bragging that the APA president said about her roo that he is good.........what does he know???!!! The breeder refused to say where his birds originated from, even she refused to say or even ask the breeder where his lines originated from. So I take it, that the roo is hatchery bred unless I hear it from the breeders mouth or emails personally from him. There were NONE!
So Sandhill is not perfect but still, too many people felt cheated because the way the birds did not look like the standard, too many flaws and faults. Personally his Faverolles SUCKS and I will announce it to the world......they simply SUCK! The birds are getting more like the hatchery colors and types and I was glad to get rid of them all. Just worthless, IMO! Same for their Polishes. I've never seen so many cross beaks, narrow legged, crooked or bent toes right from the get go. AND they refuse to refund or replace....too bad! I've ordered thru them at least three times I've remembered and shared orders with others, I am disappointed with the rare breeds but their American breeds like the Buff Orpingtons, RIR, Barred Rocks, Dominques, NH , Australorps are better. With that price, I can get it from a private dedicated breeder and be much happier with the quality and vigor and I do not have to do alot of work to correct faults which the breeder has done it while breeding his birds.
The decision is yours, yours alone and if they come out like the standards, you got lucky. If not, your loss and hope you can either use them for egg laying purposes and pet only.
Sandhilll USED to be good until the past five to eight years, they sort of went to the wayside about the culling and standards on the breeds. IMO, he is NOT a preservationist, just another breeder trying to claim "I'm the first" of its breed to make it available. Remember the Blue and Black Orpingtons? Everybody jumped on the bandwagon while the private breeders, members of the Orpington Club here in America was up in arms because his birds are not of exceptional quality and did not weed out the faults popping up in his birds. After awhile, people are getting better Orpingtons from somewhere else and doing successfully in shows from time to time, again and again. Even Catalupa Farms, Dick Boulanger, Peter Marlin, Dick Horsmann would advise you not to buy their Orps or Faverolles from Sandhill because they KNOW and HEARD from people again and again, that they were very disappointed. I know you can not please every customer and every chick is not going to come out like a show winner but a good ratio of chicks would come out pretty good and then you would have to do some serious culling, nitpick as you will but you would do the breed a favor by following the standard.
I've heard from a Mille Fleur Leghorn breeder, she was disappointed in the quality of the chicks she raised this year from the Sandhill chicks, some have white legs and some had yellow legs and some ended up too much white, looking too much like Speckled Sussex patterns...........something tells me something was wrong in the background of those Sandhill parents. Were they crossed with Sussexes? It is a possibility or a bad throwback going on in half or a good number of chicks that are not up to the standard.
Off my soapbox. Thank you for listening in!
I know you were at the NEBC show. A lot of birds there were bought from sandhill. The quality on some birds were exceptional!
If your going to buy from a hatchery, do it from sandhill
Sometimes what you see in ONE show does not mean they are exceptional. Even a local show which one or two breeders of a popular breed would win everything across the board and when they go to another show, most likely "National Regional poultry show", they may or may not win as much as they did locally or smaller shows. Judges pick out the BEST of the two different birds of the same breed in the only class they have even when the winning bird will or would not win successfully at a "national" poultry show.
For example, I remember one lady going to a show, bought "Best of Breed" rooster and he was the only breed shown under ONE breeder. So that breeder won most of the ribbons under the breed category. The roo himself was not the greatest specimen, got some faults that I would never use for breeding but this lady insist that her roo WAS the best in the show and the breeder SOLD her the roo! Now most breeders will NOT sell their best roo, they would use him for breeding and when they have enough of his offsprings, they may consider selling him later. Alot of the members of the club was disgusted with this lady thinking she got the BEST roo but really she does not and tried to have the "breeders name insert" lines. There is no such line nor she will succeed. The roos faults were these, his comb was too big and too beefy, his tips were too triangle-y, too much black stripes in neck feathers and body shaped like a Leghorn when this breed supposed to be a "brick shaped". She went on bragging that the APA president said about her roo that he is good.........what does he know???!!! The breeder refused to say where his birds originated from, even she refused to say or even ask the breeder where his lines originated from. So I take it, that the roo is hatchery bred unless I hear it from the breeders mouth or emails personally from him. There were NONE!
So Sandhill is not perfect but still, too many people felt cheated because the way the birds did not look like the standard, too many flaws and faults. Personally his Faverolles SUCKS and I will announce it to the world......they simply SUCK! The birds are getting more like the hatchery colors and types and I was glad to get rid of them all. Just worthless, IMO! Same for their Polishes. I've never seen so many cross beaks, narrow legged, crooked or bent toes right from the get go. AND they refuse to refund or replace....too bad! I've ordered thru them at least three times I've remembered and shared orders with others, I am disappointed with the rare breeds but their American breeds like the Buff Orpingtons, RIR, Barred Rocks, Dominques, NH , Australorps are better. With that price, I can get it from a private dedicated breeder and be much happier with the quality and vigor and I do not have to do alot of work to correct faults which the breeder has done it while breeding his birds.
The decision is yours, yours alone and if they come out like the standards, you got lucky. If not, your loss and hope you can either use them for egg laying purposes and pet only.
Sandhilll USED to be good until the past five to eight years, they sort of went to the wayside about the culling and standards on the breeds. IMO, he is NOT a preservationist, just another breeder trying to claim "I'm the first" of its breed to make it available. Remember the Blue and Black Orpingtons? Everybody jumped on the bandwagon while the private breeders, members of the Orpington Club here in America was up in arms because his birds are not of exceptional quality and did not weed out the faults popping up in his birds. After awhile, people are getting better Orpingtons from somewhere else and doing successfully in shows from time to time, again and again. Even Catalupa Farms, Dick Boulanger, Peter Marlin, Dick Horsmann would advise you not to buy their Orps or Faverolles from Sandhill because they KNOW and HEARD from people again and again, that they were very disappointed. I know you can not please every customer and every chick is not going to come out like a show winner but a good ratio of chicks would come out pretty good and then you would have to do some serious culling, nitpick as you will but you would do the breed a favor by following the standard.
I've heard from a Mille Fleur Leghorn breeder, she was disappointed in the quality of the chicks she raised this year from the Sandhill chicks, some have white legs and some had yellow legs and some ended up too much white, looking too much like Speckled Sussex patterns...........something tells me something was wrong in the background of those Sandhill parents. Were they crossed with Sussexes? It is a possibility or a bad throwback going on in half or a good number of chicks that are not up to the standard.
Off my soapbox. Thank you for listening in!
Oh Yes, and I agree! Lucky for me, they were shown in the breed i know best, Cochins, and they had some good competition. While they didn't win, the quality was still there. Some had some faults BUT compared to any other hatchery, i was surprised!
I don't recommend hatchery either.
-Mark
I don't recommend hatchery either.
-Mark
Do not be afraid to buy Bama Chicken's Blue and Black Orpingtons which some of her original flock came from there. They were better specimens than today's chicks. She did alot of work to improve what she had and be able to work from it by using better lines to get the results she needed to get there. That is the exception I will make on her Sandhill origin Orpingtons she has. I've seen her birds and very, very impressed with the time, money, dedication and always striving to IMPROVE the generations to come.
Quote:
That I do not know for sure because I never ordered their seeds.
They are indeed heavily involved in saving heritage strain seeds, heirloom sweet potatoes and with the Seed Savers Exchange.
I have no opinion on their birds as I have never ordered any. Just seeds and sweet potato slips.
That I do not know for sure because I never ordered their seeds.
They are indeed heavily involved in saving heritage strain seeds, heirloom sweet potatoes and with the Seed Savers Exchange.
I have no opinion on their birds as I have never ordered any. Just seeds and sweet potato slips.
Quote:
That I do not know for sure because I never ordered their seeds.
They are indeed heavily involved in saving heritage strain seeds, heirloom sweet potatoes and with the Seed Savers Exchange.
I have no opinion on their birds as I have never ordered any. Just seeds and sweet potato slips.
I would love to try their pastel colored corn for kicks and good fodder for chickens LOL!
That I do not know for sure because I never ordered their seeds.
They are indeed heavily involved in saving heritage strain seeds, heirloom sweet potatoes and with the Seed Savers Exchange.
I have no opinion on their birds as I have never ordered any. Just seeds and sweet potato slips.
I would love to try their pastel colored corn for kicks and good fodder for chickens LOL!
BlacksheepCardigans
Songster
Quote:
There are a couple of reasons that you are probably going to be disappointed if you want some of the more extreme show breeds from someone calling themselves a breed preservationist:
1) He's going to be breeding for the fundamental structural and utility qualities of a breed, not cosmetic perfection. A TON of people mistake one for the other. If the "standard" to you means color and shanks, then yes, you're going to have trouble with someone who is breeding for utility within an established heritage breed. If the standard to you describes a certain shape or type of bird - and most of the time you ignore the color paragraphs entirely until you so consistently produce the good body that you can afford to focus on color - then you're likely to be happier with him than with any other hatchery.
2) Predictability is the result of low genetic variance. You want 20 chicks that all grow up to look the same (same plumage, same weight, same leg color, etc.), you've got to inbreed them. If you don't, you end up with something like the family of a supermodel - she's tall and gorgeous, maybe one other sibling is tall and almost as pretty, and a bunch of average-looking people. Sand Hill is always going to choose the least possible inbreeding, and he'll deliberately outcross even if he's got a strain that he likes. That's exactly the opposite of what a dedicated show breeder does - they fight to get the genetic variability down to zero so they get consistent results. If you buy from him, you'll probably get a few that can be shown (that have the cosmetic qualifications) and a bunch more that will behave the way the breed has behaved historically - in terms of producing meat or eggs - but will not have the cosmetic perfection.
I get very ticked at the hatcheries who haven't the slightest idea what they're doing and are selling to the pet market using pictures of show birds. It's totally unfair to bring people in with paintings of giant Brahmas or massive Jersey Giants or fluffy Silkies when you know perfectly well that there's no chance ANYTHING you sell could ever meet those paintings. They're not breeding for utility OR show; they're just puppy-milling, honestly. Sand Hill does not do that. He has a philosophy of breeding that may not be the same as a show breeder's, but it IS sound from the stance of preservation. Minimum inbreeding is unquestionably the way to preserve a small population in maximum health. And he's honest about the fact that some of his stuff isn't showable and some will produce show birds.
You know that saying that you have to build the barn before you paint it? Well, for someone who cares about whether a breed is going to be around 200 years from now, there's a first step. You have to build up a sustainable population of maximum genetic diversity, THEN you build the barn, THEN you paint it. Some of his breeds are still in the "build the population" stage, some meet the standard body-wise, some also meet the cosmetic standard. But he's not going to skip that first step, nor is he going to ever (I hope) get enough predictability that he's hurt that first step. And, most important, he's HONEST about where his stock is and what his priorities are.
There are a couple of reasons that you are probably going to be disappointed if you want some of the more extreme show breeds from someone calling themselves a breed preservationist:
1) He's going to be breeding for the fundamental structural and utility qualities of a breed, not cosmetic perfection. A TON of people mistake one for the other. If the "standard" to you means color and shanks, then yes, you're going to have trouble with someone who is breeding for utility within an established heritage breed. If the standard to you describes a certain shape or type of bird - and most of the time you ignore the color paragraphs entirely until you so consistently produce the good body that you can afford to focus on color - then you're likely to be happier with him than with any other hatchery.
2) Predictability is the result of low genetic variance. You want 20 chicks that all grow up to look the same (same plumage, same weight, same leg color, etc.), you've got to inbreed them. If you don't, you end up with something like the family of a supermodel - she's tall and gorgeous, maybe one other sibling is tall and almost as pretty, and a bunch of average-looking people. Sand Hill is always going to choose the least possible inbreeding, and he'll deliberately outcross even if he's got a strain that he likes. That's exactly the opposite of what a dedicated show breeder does - they fight to get the genetic variability down to zero so they get consistent results. If you buy from him, you'll probably get a few that can be shown (that have the cosmetic qualifications) and a bunch more that will behave the way the breed has behaved historically - in terms of producing meat or eggs - but will not have the cosmetic perfection.
I get very ticked at the hatcheries who haven't the slightest idea what they're doing and are selling to the pet market using pictures of show birds. It's totally unfair to bring people in with paintings of giant Brahmas or massive Jersey Giants or fluffy Silkies when you know perfectly well that there's no chance ANYTHING you sell could ever meet those paintings. They're not breeding for utility OR show; they're just puppy-milling, honestly. Sand Hill does not do that. He has a philosophy of breeding that may not be the same as a show breeder's, but it IS sound from the stance of preservation. Minimum inbreeding is unquestionably the way to preserve a small population in maximum health. And he's honest about the fact that some of his stuff isn't showable and some will produce show birds.
You know that saying that you have to build the barn before you paint it? Well, for someone who cares about whether a breed is going to be around 200 years from now, there's a first step. You have to build up a sustainable population of maximum genetic diversity, THEN you build the barn, THEN you paint it. Some of his breeds are still in the "build the population" stage, some meet the standard body-wise, some also meet the cosmetic standard. But he's not going to skip that first step, nor is he going to ever (I hope) get enough predictability that he's hurt that first step. And, most important, he's HONEST about where his stock is and what his priorities are.
- Jul 21, 2010
- 3,788
- 15
- 181
I agree completely with ewesheep
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