Sebastopol geese - selecting breeding stock, color genetics, and color improvement

[Jenifer Kraus]

I want my colored birds to look like my whites and these colored birds have white in them. Not that you don't get some junk but I am pretty picky at culling and don't put anything out to be bred from that is not good enough to use. I have always enjoyed these birds and do not concentrate on selling but making a better bird that I enjoy looking at. So please don't tell me that there are no quality colored birds out there because there are.

 

[DaveK]

Same here. So you don't breed colored Sebastopols either, yet you are qualified to evaluate them and not I? Do all judges breed all breeds and varieties which they judge? I don't breed colored Sebastopols but evaluating them is no different than evaluating the white birds except for color. I will certainly admit that a large part of the problem seems to be the mindset that wants color before type and quality. That has always seemed the road to nowhere for me anyway. Type, feather and overall quality with color is possible but folks need to rethink breeding strategy if indeed they actually care about and want a colored bird of quality. I've held my own stock as well as my own thoughts and ideas up for criticism or whatever comes. It's a discussion forum for pete's sake. It needn't have to feel personal as long as we stick to the issue and not personalities. If I am guilty of twisting your words and intent then I for one will wholeheartedly apologize. My own mindset is that we are all having a discussion, not all agreeing and that is fine. I am entering into this with the idea that you have felt the general run of Sebastopols being exhibited are of very high quality because after all they are show winners. If I am wrong then I stand corrected. You are much more clear in your ascertion that colored stock just cannot and isn't going to approach the so called quality line of the best whites. And in regard to this opinion I am much more clear in thinking that you are dead wrong. Not in all or even most cases of course but the idea that coloreds cannot equal the best whites is absurd to an observer who has seen what can and in some cases actually does exist.

 

[poultry09]

I want my colored birds to look like my whites and these colored birds have white in them. Not that you don't get some junk but I am pretty picky at culling and don't put anything out to be bred from that is not good enough to use. I have always enjoyed these birds and do not concentrate on selling but making a better bird that I enjoy looking at. So please don't tell me that there are no quality colored birds out there because there are.

They are beautiful and look stunning!

 

[CelticOaksFarm]

Dave and Jennifer thank you for your thoughts (and pictures too) and being willing to offer words and photo examples to help other better what they have. I love the blues Jennifer has, and hope I can get Pur buffs and lilacs there with time and dedication. I have a curly buff this year I like the coloring and feathering. Now I am torn if I should cross with white or grey to help pull the type in better?

Anyways, I started this thread as a learning tool/sounding board so those who want better colored variety Sebbies can set goals and try and make improvements.

 

[CelticOaksFarm]

PS, I would love a grey gander from Jenifer if she would ever let one leave her care

 

[Wynette]

Folks, I have spent a great deal of time cleaning this thread - this included editing MANY posts.

All need to remember that it's fine to disagree with someone's opinion, but you need to do so in a non-offensive and constructive way.

Also, any member is free to join a thread.

Lastly, report - DO NOT quote - a thread you feel may be breaking the rules. If this thread continues in the manner that it was, it will be locked or removed from the forum.

 

[CelticOaksFarm]

Wynette, sorry you had to be involved, but thank you also. Hopefully future posts can stay on subject now for discussing and selecting to better the colors in Sebbies.

 

[fowlman01]

Good topic!
When introducing a new color to any breed...waterfowl, poultry or whatever, type and in this case, even feathering is secondary to color.
Once you get the color you want, you can work on type.
Dave Holderread has been the premier breeder of colored
Sebastopols and has done it longer and more successfully than anybody else.
He has made it pretty easy for those of us who are working with colored Sebastopols in that we have a good starting
point often with decent birds type and feather wise (some even SQ) but there's always room for improvement so please
breed for betterment of the breed as much as you are able.

Couple of my 2012 saddleback girls.

If you already have the type, this is true. If you have excellent type, color can come next. But I don't know of anyone, including Holderread who would say that color is first. With Sebs the type is already established at a very high level and maybe that is what you meant, but you also mention poultry and I don't know of anyone who would agree with that statement. In my long time in exhibition waterfowl and chickens, I have never heard that type is secondary to color......nor do I believe that

Walt

 

[fowlman01]

Same here. So you don't breed colored Sebastopols either, yet you are qualified to evaluate them and not I? Do all judges breed all breeds and varieties which they judge? I don't breed colored Sebastopols but evaluating them is no different than evaluating the white birds except for color. I will certainly admit that a large part of the problem seems to be the mindset that wants color before type and quality. That has always seemed the road to nowhere for me anyway. Type, feather and overall quality with color is possible but folks need to rethink breeding strategy if indeed they actually care about and want a colored bird of quality. I've held my own stock as well as my own thoughts and ideas up for criticism or whatever comes. It's a discussion forum for pete's sake. It needn't have to feel personal as long as we stick to the issue and not personalities. If I am guilty of twisting your words and intent then I for one will wholeheartedly apologize. My own mindset is that we are all having a discussion, not all agreeing and that is fine. I am entering into this with the idea that you have felt the general run of Sebastopols being exhibited are of very high quality because after all they are show winners. If I am wrong then I stand corrected. You are much more clear in your ascertion that colored stock just cannot and isn't going to approach the so called quality line of the best whites. And in regard to this opinion I am much more clear in thinking that you are dead wrong. Not in all or even most cases of course but the idea that coloreds cannot equal the best whites is absurd to an observer who has seen what can and in some cases actually does exist.

Correct on all counts Dave. Your other comment about Sebs that are being shown looking like different breeds is also true. Sebs are hard to judge correctly.especially by someone who has never raised them. there are at least two or three distinct body types being shown at this time, but the SOP only recognizes one. I have had Dave's strain here for over 25 years. I run into you at the strangest places....lol

Walt

Walt

 

[pips&peeps]

Walt,

This is kind off topic....

I have a question. How can a judge determine the true body type of a sebastopol without handling the bird? You have suggested that there seems to be different body types being shown.

As you know sebastopols have a lot of feathering. Sometimes the feathers on the back and tail area can make a bird appear longer in the body than they actually are. My juvenile birds tend to have very profuse feathering, more so than the older birds in my flock. I was told by the judge at Indy last year that one of my juvenile ganders was too long in the body. (Coop card read NICE, NICE, NICE bird - too long) Clearly though, just "looking at him" as he molted this summer he has an oval body; there is no way in heck he could be identified as having a rectangular or long body during his molt. I also knew when I took him to Indy that he did not have a rectangular or long body.

The standard is clear about the body type on the sebastopol, nowhere does it state that the body should "appear" a certain way in the profuse feathering. I understand that there is a certain look to an OVAL body, but again my point is that this feathering can really obscure what is underneath.

I would also have to argue that a rectangular or longer body would be closer to the standard than a round one:

Oval


Round



Rectangular

There also are DQ's that could be hidden under the feathers that may be missed since birds are not handled. I can see where a judge would not handle a tightly feathered goose, but why not handle the sebastopols? Is this something that should be brought up at a higher level to the APA?

Please don't take this as a personal attack; I really want to learn more about the judging process and how, perhaps, exhibitors can help change/upgrade some things that we may think are not being done properly (IMO) in the show ring. You are one of the only judges that posts here and is open to sharing. You have never judged my sebastopols and I know if you did and I had questions we could discuss it.