Silkie breeding, genetics & showing

[chisNchickens]

So since you posted the pics Suze, I have a question. Why do you suppose we see so much variation in partridge? I have been reading the partridge thread over again and the partridge I originally fell for is like this:





...which is not correct to the standard for partridge color - not really even close. What is up with the dark crests? You don't see that in other partridge colored birds right? I am rethinking having a partridge pen now

.

 

[Jharper]

She's getting BETTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

I have a question about my show prospects. At what age do you start bathing them? Mine are young and I'm not even sure they will turn out show quality but I want to get them trained just in case.

I only bathe when they are about to go to a show or if they get really dirty (poop collected on backsides, or they slept under a roost and got pooped upon. You don't need to train them for a bath.

Training them for showmanship and for being handled in general, I'd start as early as you can.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Quote: YES! Thank you I see so many washed out partridges, and think they just don't look right, and at shows you see properly coloured partridges in other breeds, and wonder why they are so scarce amongst silkies. Breeding in mahogany has been a really good choice

 

[ChickNmamma]

So since you posted the pics Suze, I have a question. Why do you suppose we see so much variation in partridge? I have been reading the partridge thread over again and the partridge I originally fell for is like this:





...which is not correct to the standard for partridge color - not really even close. What is up with the dark crests? You don't see that in other partridge colored birds right? I am rethinking having a partridge pen now

.

I am not Sonoran but I love Partridge Silkies. I have been trying to figure out this question for awhile now and I now have a theory. Partridge in SIlkies is not Partridge genetically. We can't see the feathers properly to make sure they are colored and patterned correctly and all the males used for Partridge breedings are NOT Partridge genetically (it calls for a black chest - how many black chested RED Partridge Silkie males have you ever seen?). Every chipmunk chick born in Silkies is lumped under Partridge, no matter the parentage. There are three genetic bases that have chipmunk chicks - so you have three possible bases, and all sorts of genetics all being mixed into Silkie Partridges. Genetic Partridge is not a light or medium tan/brown or yellow chipmunk chick, they are very dark chocolate brown top, lighter tan or grey undersides, barely chipmunk, with a darker almost black back and a black/brown "helmet" on their head. No eye stripes. Therefore - our "Partridge" is not genetically a Partridge by any other breed standards (except possibly Cochin, I did see some chipmunk chicks with eye liner called Partridge there, I wish I could see what the adults turned out to be like). Our Partridge chicks look closer to penciled, laced and Easter Egger (totally mixed genetics) chicks. Who knows what genetics they carry?

I have a girl here who is a cross of a smooth feathered Black Silkie mix (from a Blue mother) and a Partridge Silkie father. He is closer to the correct color for Partridge in Silkies (Black/Red with a bit of gold collar (which is still not genetically correct Partridge), shows patterning) and his daughter looks like the "Partridge" in Easter Eggers. That isn't Partridge either, its a mix of a bunch of genetics. If you gave her silkied feathers she would look like the Partridge Silkie girls. I have Partridge Wyandotte Bantams - those are correctly colored genetically Partridge and they look nothing like any Silkie Partridge I have ever seen. Gold is not correct on any feather. Genetic Partridge is dark brown/red and black. That's it. Females are all over evenly colored and patterned black and red/brown, males are black with red. Patterning shows up on the juvenile feathered chicks, the adult male feathers hide most patterning, but a few feathers do still show patterning. My male and female PWB looked exactly alike until the male got his adult plumage. They both looked female until then (drat)...

The black head appears to come from the B/B/S breeding "Partridges". You don't see it on the parents because everything is black based - but when crossed to a buff I have one bird with a black head, Blue body, Gold and Red leakage and patterning on his feathers. I think it is a gene brought in to prevent other color from showing on the crest of the Blue/Black/Splash and it may give the correct dark head on the Blues. I don't think its correct genetically for other breeds Blue though. I prefer the brown head (which is closer to correct for our version of Partridge).

I believe there are very few colors in Silkies that match correctly genetically to their called color. White and Buff - maybe. The rest - no, I don't think so. The only one that I think will breed true to color every single time is White - and that's because White covers everything. Every other color I don't think will breed true 100% of the time - because the genetics of the individual birds are not correct for the color they appear. They are hiding miss-matched genetics. Unless the breeder has worked with their flock for years and removed all the extraneous genetics they will not get 100% correctly colored birds from every crossing. Bring in an outside bird and all genetics go out the window again. "Partridge" keeps popping up, odd colors that are then called Partridge, etc - and those get put back into the stewpot we call Partridge Silkies.

Silkie Partridges would need A LOT of work to be correct for genetic Partridge, or we can just continue with what we are calling Partridge and end up with whatever genetically.. Close counts in Silkies.

 

[Fur N Feathers]

So since you posted the pics Suze, I have a question. Why do you suppose we see so much variation in partridge? I have been reading the partridge thread over again and the partridge I originally fell for is like this:





...which is not correct to the standard for partridge color - not really even close. What is up with the dark crests? You don't see that in other partridge colored birds right? I am rethinking having a partridge pen now

.

Please DON'T stop. I LOVE her!!! Or if you do sell her to ME!!!!

Sonoran I love yours too! And posing with that rose bush in the background is beautiful. A calender shot in my opinion.


Happy Hump Day!

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

So since you posted the pics Suze, I have a question. Why do you suppose we see so much variation in partridge? I have been reading the partridge thread over again and the partridge I originally fell for is like this:





...which is not correct to the standard for partridge color - not really even close. What is up with the dark crests? You don't see that in other partridge colored birds right? I am rethinking having a partridge pen now

.

You are correct that the dark head is not to standard. It is probably due to the presence of the charcoal gene (Cha). Cha is extrememly closely linked with peacomb (something like 99.7% chance of inheriting both together). To correct, you need to breed to a bird with the proper red head, and keep doing that with the offspring until you are consistently producing redheads. As for the darker body, if you are using two pen breeding (one pen cor correctly coloured females and one for correctly coloured males, this is the colour you look for t produce the properly dark partridge males.

All that said, I do like the moorcap look on the girls, even if it is not to standard. Of course I love the redheads, too. On the boys I really don't care for the moorcaps. The standard says that the quality of penciling and contrast is more important than that the bird being overall lighter or darker.

Here are punnet squares for a couple of generations:

F1​

Cha P Cha P
cha+ P Cha P/cha+ P Cha P/cha+ P
cha+ P Cha P/cha+ P Cha P/cha+ P

F2​

Cha P cha+ P
cha+ P Cha P/cha+ P cha+ P/cha+ P
cha+ P Cha P/cha+ P cha+ P/cha+ P

- or -
F2​

Cha P cha+ P
Cha P Cha P/Cha P Cha P/cha+ P
cha+ P Cha P/cha+ P cha+ P/cha+ P

Cha P/Cha P = dark head
Cha P/cha+ P = dark head
cha+ P/cha+ P = red head​

 

[thedragonlady]

So since you posted the pics Suze, I have a question. Why do you suppose we see so much variation in partridge? I have been reading the partridge thread over again and the partridge I originally fell for is like this:





...which is not correct to the standard for partridge color - not really even close. What is up with the dark crests? You don't see that in other partridge colored birds right? I am rethinking having a partridge pen now

.

YEARS AGO I ASKED ABOUT 20 ABA + APA JUDGES TO DESCRIBE THE COLORING OF A CORRECT PARTRIDGE SILKIE TO ME. I WROTE DOWN THEIR COMMENTS. NO 2 DESCRIPTIONS WERE ALIKE ! THE ONLY THING IN COMMON WAS THAT THEY ALL WANTED TO SEE PARTRIDGE MARKINGS IN THE WING BOWS.COLORS WERE ALL OVER THE PLACE, BUT MOST WANTED GOOD CONTRAST WITH RICH REDDISH CHESNUT AND BLACK. MAKE 'EM PRETTY, AND YOU'LL DO SOME WINNING.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Quote: While I agree with a LOT of what you've said, I think there are a lot of (at least mostly) genetically correct partridge. A large part of the problem is that people stress over things like toe spacing or comb size, and then skimp over selecting for correct colouring. Heck, a lot of folks seem to select FOR washed out colouring.

You are very correct about not being able to see the pattern quality in silkied feathers. And since we can't tell whether they are properly penciled or are double laced or even just really smutty, we can't select for/against the pattern quality. I'd love to see a really good book with chick down illustrations for each gene, or at least most of the more common ones. There are plenty of photos out there, but not really put together in a comparative format, and illustrations WITH photos shows you the ideal versus reality. (So that you can compare e+ striping with e^b striping, etc.)

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Quote: LOL! I am not surprised. I think that if silkies were a new breed, many of the APA and ABA would be actively against including them in the standard. I once had a very serious breeder of several other breeds ask me how recently silkies had been invented. I wonder if we could put together a timeline of the OLDEST breeds how many would be earlier...