Silkie breeding, genetics & showing

[Jharper]

SHE'S GETTING BETTER!!!!!!

 

[chisNchickens]

I am not Sonoran but I love Partridge Silkies. I have been trying to figure out this question for awhile now and I now have a theory. Partridge in SIlkies is not Partridge genetically. We can't see the feathers properly to make sure they are colored and patterned correctly and all the males used for Partridge breedings are NOT Partridge genetically (it calls for a black chest - how many black chested RED Partridge Silkie males have you ever seen?). Every chipmunk chick born in Silkies is lumped under Partridge, no matter the parentage. There are three genetic bases that have chipmunk chicks - so you have three possible bases, and all sorts of genetics all being mixed into Silkie Partridges. Genetic Partridge is not a light or medium tan/brown or yellow chipmunk chick, they are very dark chocolate brown top, lighter tan or grey undersides, barely chipmunk, with a darker almost black back and a black/brown "helmet" on their head. No eye stripes. Therefore - our "Partridge" is not genetically a Partridge by any other breed standards (except possibly Cochin, I did see some chipmunk chicks with eye liner called Partridge there, I wish I could see what the adults turned out to be like). Our Partridge chicks look closer to penciled, laced and Easter Egger (totally mixed genetics) chicks. Who knows what genetics they carry? Very interesting, thanks! But I do have a lighter partridge and I can see the penciling easily. Silkied feathering changes aside, but it is there. Unfortunately she appears to be a blue partridge.

I have a girl here who is a cross of a smooth feathered Black Silkie mix (from a Blue mother) and a Partridge Silkie father. He is closer to the correct color for Partridge in Silkies (Black/Red with a bit of gold collar (which is still not genetically correct Partridge), shows patterning) and his daughter looks like the "Partridge" in Easter Eggers. That isn't Partridge either, its a mix of a bunch of genetics. If you gave her silkied feathers she would look like the Partridge Silkie girls. I have Partridge Wyandotte Bantams - those are correctly colored genetically Partridge and they look nothing like any Silkie Partridge I have ever seen. Gold is not correct on any feather. Genetic Partridge is dark brown/red and black. That's it. Females are all over evenly colored and patterned black and red/brown, males are black with red. Patterning shows up on the juvenile feathered chicks, the adult male feathers hide most patterning, but a few feathers do still show patterning. My male and female PWB looked exactly alike until the male got his adult plumage. They both looked female until then (drat)...

The black head appears to come from the B/B/S breeding "Partridges". You don't see it on the parents because everything is black based - but when crossed to a buff I have one bird with a black head, Blue body, Gold and Red leakage and patterning on his feathers. I think it is a gene brought in to prevent other color from showing on the crest of the Blue/Black/Splash and it may give the correct dark head on the Blues. I don't think its correct genetically for other breeds Blue though. I prefer the brown head (which is closer to correct for our version of Partridge).

I believe there are very few colors in Silkies that match correctly genetically to their called color. White and Buff - maybe. You forgot black...and blue if it is the proper andalusian blue. I had a blue cockbird that was the exact same color as my blue am cockbird. A lot of the "blue" you see is so messed up. Not blue at all. The rest - no, I don't think so. The only one that I think will breed true to color every single time is White - and that's because White covers everything. Every other color I don't think will breed true 100% of the time - because the genetics of the individual birds are not correct for the color they appear. They are hiding miss-matched genetics. Unless the breeder has worked with their flock for years and removed all the extraneous genetics they will not get 100% correctly colored birds from every crossing. Bring in an outside bird and all genetics go out the window again. "Partridge" keeps popping up, odd colors that are then called Partridge, etc - and those get put back into the stewpot we call Partridge Silkies. Agreed.

Silkie Partridges would need A LOT of work to be correct for genetic Partridge, or we can just continue with what we are calling Partridge and end up with whatever genetically.. Close counts in Silkies. Suze looks to have it right on in her partridge pictured a page or two back.

 

[chisNchickens]

While I agree with a LOT of what you've said, I think there are a lot of (at least mostly) genetically correct partridge. A large part of the problem is that people stress over things like toe spacing or comb size, and then skimp over selecting for correct colouring. Ack I HATE that! Toe spacing!! Who cares!! So not an issue in my book. Heck, a lot of folks seem to select FOR washed out colouring.

You are very correct about not being able to see the pattern quality in silkied feathers. And since we can't tell whether they are properly penciled or are double laced or even just really smutty, we can't select for/against the pattern quality. I'd love to see a really good book with chick down illustrations for each gene, or at least most of the more common ones. There are plenty of photos out there, but not really put together in a comparative format, and illustrations WITH photos shows you the ideal versus reality. (So that you can compare e+ striping with e^b striping, etc.)
Okay now you have lost me. lol

 

[chisNchickens]

Please DON'T stop. I LOVE her!!! Or if you do sell her to ME!!!!

Sonoran I love yours too! And posing with that rose bush in the background is beautiful. A calender shot in my opinion.

Lol. She isn't going anywhere...but thanks! I paid dearly for that girl, she has done quite a bit of winning prior to my obtaining her.

 

[ChickNmamma]

Quote: No, I did not forget Black. Black in Silkies is not genetically the same as Black in almost every other breed. Silkie Black is based on a different base with melanizers (E^R or others)- and every other black breed that I know of is based on Extended Black - totally different base. I have been seeing some Silkie chicks on here that appear to have the Extended Black base - so it is coming. Where it is coming from I don't know. However - 99% of the Black Silkie chicks that I see out there are not based on Extended Black.

Blue is not the same either. Not only being based on the wrong base (the same as Black above) but some lack lacing and some lack the darker head. My "Blue" birds are not correct. Some are closer to correct. Some are based on Partridge bases! So Black and Blue are not included in those colors that genetically match other breed's colors.

And Suze's Partridges do not appear genetically Partridge to me. None of the Silkies I have ever seen do. Please don't get me wrong, I LOVE her Partridges - but they are not PARTRIDGE - they are Partridge Silkies. Please go look at Partridges in every other breed. The front of the girls is not a solid color and it is not lighter than the back. The back of the birds is not black or darker than the front The whole bird is one even color (although I have seen some Partridges with black "collars" around their necks) - not divided like the Silkies are. Patterning on the bird does not make it a Partridge. In Silkies it might - but in the rest of the breeds it does not. I am sorry but neither one of your birds looks genetically Partridge to me.

Find me a Partridge Silkie Hen that looks like THIS:

(not the best picture, I know - but I didn't want to borrow somebody elses - this is my PWB Rear PWB is lighter than her daughter in front. If you want to see good pictures of real Partridge in other breeds go look on Feathersite)


Suse says there are genetically correct Partridge Silkies out there. I have not ever seen a picture of one. Perhaps they come from the dark Partridge breedings and people think they are too dark and cross them with the light birds to get back to the light gold, light front, light brown etc. and loose the proper base and genetics again, I don't know. I want to believe they exist, and I can get some. I have other similar unsupported beliefs.. but I am not holding my breath for proof...

Perhaps I need to add Mahogany to my pair - they are evenly colored - mostly

Just much too light for proper Partridge and with that light front/darker rear...

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Quote: *blush* I love it when people talk about me like this behind my back

You are sweet. Thank you!

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Quote: I should have split that last paragraph into two.

The point of the first half of it is that with silkied feathers, we can't see whether we are selecting for proper penciling or not. With normal feathers, we can see the pattern, and whether it is correct or needs to be improved, or if it is even penciling at all, but not when they are shredded.

Second half of the paragraph is wishing there was a good book or chart with chick down patterns. There are lots of generalized photos and/or drawings, but what I would like to see is one that shows, for example, e+ and e^b chicks (both have chipmunk stripes) side by side and points out the differences. And I'd like to see that with both drawings of the perfectly marked chicks, as well as photos that take into account that perfect is never really achieved. Now add in all the other genes that you'd like to be able to identify in chick down, and THAT is the book I'd like to see.

 

[Fur N Feathers]

Lol. She isn't going anywhere...but thanks! I paid dearly for that girl, she has done quite a bit of winning prior to my obtaining her.

Ha! Ha! Ha! I don't doubt that in the least!!!

 

[ChickNmamma]

Quote: I should have split that last paragraph into two.

The point of the first half of it is that with silkied feathers, we can't see whether we are selecting for proper penciling or not. With normal feathers, we can see the pattern, and whether it is correct or needs to be improved, or if it is even penciling at all, but not when they are shredded.

Second half of the paragraph is wishing there was a good book or chart with chick down patterns. There are lots of generalized photos and/or drawings, but what I would like to see is one that shows, for example, e+ and e^b chicks (both have chipmunk stripes) side by side and points out the differences. And I'd like to see that with both drawings of the perfectly marked chicks, as well as photos that take into account that perfect is never really achieved. Now add in all the other genes that you'd like to be able to identify in chick down, and THAT is the book I'd like to see.

I believe you were the one that directed me to a place where I read up on that - and they have a thread about chick down and how it indicates base patterns that I found fascinating.

There was a chick down picture there that started my questioning what our Partridge Silkies were based on. I hope I can borrow that picture again:

Yay, it worked. Now - which chick does our Partridge Silkies look most like? Not the eb... Genetic Partridge is based on e^b... No eyeliner on that chick... (Edited to add.. after looking at the pictures again I would say our Partridge Silkies sort of look like the e^b c - except that is not a common base (think Golden Seabright). I wonder what we really have?)

Unfortunately it didn't get the back shot - so they do have a darker spot and sort of lighter lines on the sides - but not to the extent of what I have seen on all the Partridge Chicks, mine and all I have seen pictured here. I have seen ONE Partridge Silkie chick that I can recall that appeared similar to the e^b chick - I asked the person keep us updated on what it turned out like.

Our Silkie Blacks are based on E^R (and others) not E...

This started the questions...

I too would love to see somebody do a categorized chick down book - what is pure - and what each melanizer adds to the pure chick down pattern so you can tell what genetics the chick carries shortly after they are born. Things like Barring are very obvious (white dot on head). Other ones are much more subtle.

The Chick down phenotypes and genotypes topic started out really well - but a lot of people do not know how to read chick down, so it has sort of stopped. If anybody out there wants to add to it - please do so - then perhaps some day we can have our reference that Sonoran and I would like to see.

 

[Fur N Feathers]

I could give you a lot of different colored partridge chicks and how they look now, but you and Sonoran would have to make the equations for them.

Example:

This one


grew up to be this:

This one

grew up to be this: