Sustainable breeding with small numbers?

Interesting... You mentioned earlier using games in your breeding but I didnt realize you meant in such high percentages! I wonder, in regards to egg production in particular, if it makes a diference whether the new blood was introduced via a cock or a hen? I would think it would, but then I dont really know... I have a lot more to learn about inheritance patterns in poultry.
 
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I think roll mating or line mating are going to depend on what you get for stock. Say you have a very uniform flock and your only real intent is to keep up diversity then rolling males from pen to pen would do that. But in the real world there is a lot that needs fixing or tweeking in any given flock. That's where line breeding and in a very real sense that means inbreeding comes into play. The need to strengthen a trait will often be done with father daughter or the reverse mother son pairings. It's not a bad thing at all. As stated earlier it's the multi generations of very close genetics can rear it's ugly head. It does it in two ways- first the close breeding will allow more recessive genes to pair up. This can strengthen traits you want and can also strengthen traits you never want. With careful selection of breeders and test matings things will go in the right direction. The second way close genetic breeding goes awry is after decades the flock will lose vitality. Everything else is improved but that lack of diversity will reduce hatchability and fertility. That takes a very long time- decades of closed flock.

I'll attach a sample of line breeding diagram. In viewing it you see the typical 4 to 5 generation breeding. As someone said earlier three pens will give you more longevity to a closed flock than two pens. The principle is the same. Your selectively breeding each group for generations then moving a male to the next group. Line breeding again for generations then moving male to next group. Say you set up three breeding pens- A, B and C. Each pen could be line bred for 4 or 5 generations then A cock to B pen, B to C and C cock to the A pen to start another round of 4 or 5 generations. That could be continued for your lifetime. As for management you really don't need to house all your birds in these breeding pens all year. If you don't mind having a constant supply of chicks over the summer then you'd not even need to have three pens. One breeding pen where you moved the breeders into it, collected eggs to hatch then moved another group in. With banding of birds, wing or leg, you know parentage by keeping records. You could have a batchelor pad and a layer coop. Select the breeders you want from layer coop that are from group A and the cock from group A and put them in the breeder pen. Later in spring/early summer move them out and select breeders from group B then in late summer breeders from group C. With leg bands you know who came from what and in small selective pairings or trio or quad breeding you've selected the best to move forward. It's not to advantage to breed every bird.

generations.jpg
 
I think roll mating or line mating are going to depend on what you get for stock. Say you have a very uniform flock and your only real intent is to keep up diversity then rolling males from pen to pen would do that. But in the real world there is a lot that needs fixing or tweeking in any given flock. That's where line breeding and in a very real sense that means inbreeding comes into play. The need to strengthen a trait will often be done with father daughter or the reverse mother son pairings. It's not a bad thing at all. As stated earlier it's the multi generations of very close genetics can rear it's ugly head. It does it in two ways- first the close breeding will allow more recessive genes to pair up. This can strengthen traits you want and can also strengthen traits you never want. With careful selection of breeders and test matings things will go in the right direction. The second way close genetic breeding goes awry is after decades the flock will lose vitality. Everything else is improved but that lack of diversity will reduce hatchability and fertility. That takes a very long time- decades of closed flock. 

I'll attach a sample of line breeding diagram. In viewing it you see the typical 4 to 5 generation breeding. As someone said earlier three pens will give you more longevity to a closed flock than two pens. The principle is the same. Your selectively breeding each group for generations then moving a male to the next group. Line breeding again for generations then moving male to next group. Say you set up three breeding pens- A, B and C. Each pen could be line bred for 4 or 5 generations then A cock to B pen, B to C and C cock to the A pen to start another round of 4 or 5 generations. That could be continued for your lifetime. As for management you really don't need to house all your birds in these breeding pens all year. If you don't mind having a constant supply of chicks over the summer then you'd not even need to have three pens. One breeding pen where you moved the breeders into it, collected eggs to hatch then moved another group in. With banding of birds, wing or leg, you know parentage by keeping records. You could have a batchelor pad and a layer coop. Select the breeders you want from layer coop that are from group A and the cock from group A and put them in the breeder pen. Later in spring/early summer move them out and select breeders from group B then in late summer breeders from group C. With leg bands you know who came from what and in small selective pairings or trio or quad breeding you've selected the best to move forward. It's not to advantage to breed every bird. 

generations.jpg


Yes, thanks to the fine input from knowledgable folks on this thread and what I've been learning elsewhere recently too, my notions of "inbreeding" and genetic diversity are much more nuanced than they used to be. I used to think that anything that reduced genetic diversity was undesireable--till I realized that the whole point of SELECTIVE breeding is actually a strategic reduction of diversity (duh! Im sure some of you are laughing at me). Im inclined to picture it as a continuum between the extremes with a happy middle (like so many other things in life). Landrace breeders might be a bit closer to the extreme heterosity side and modern commercial strains lean more the other way, but its always a balancing act between limiting diversity where not wanted and encouraging it wher it is. I also feel I understand better now how different breeding schemes may help do one or the other better in the right situation--obviously, its not about which one works, because they all do, but one may be best in certain circumstances depending on what one is trying to accomplish (and also specifically in terms of genetic diversity goals).

No wonder breeding can be such a skilled artform!
 
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Yes, thanks to the fine input from knowledgable folks on this thread and what I've been learning elsewhere recently too, my notions of "inbreeding" and genetic diversity are much more nuanced than they used to be. I used to think that anything that reduced genetic diversity was undesireable--till I realized that the whole point of SELECTIVE breeding is actually a strategic reduction of diversity (duh! Im sure some of you are laughing at me). Im inclined to picture it as a continuum between the extremes with a happy middle (like so many other things in life). Landrace breeders might be a bit closer to the extreme heterosity side and modern commercial strains lean more the other way, but its always a balancing act between limiting diversity where not wanted and encouraging it wher it is. I also feel I understand better now how different breeding schemes may help do one or the other better in the right situation--obviously, its not about which one works, because they all do, but one may be best in certain circumstances depending on what one is trying to accomplish (and also specifically in terms of genetic diversity goals).

No wonder breeding can be such a skilled artform!



:thumbsup
 
By the way, does anyone have any good books they might recommend relating to poultry genetics/breeding etc that might be worth studying or adding to my library? The internet is fine and all but books are way cooler... :)
 
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The Small-Scale Poultry Flock: An All-Natural Approach to Raising Chickens and Other Fowl for Home and Market Growers Paperback – October 7, 2011
by Harvey Ussery (Author), Joel Salatin (Foreword)
 
Ah yes, I already have Ussery's book and love it! (Ive been going over his chapters on breeding more thoroughly again recently--when i first got my copy years ago i just skimmed over a lot of that).
 
The Mating and Breeding of Poultry

by Harry M Lamon and Rob R. Slocum

Published 1920, reprint I have is 2003. Great book, covers a lot of different breeds for known things to look out for and talks about breeding practices in general. A ton of info that is put forth with practical application in mind not abstract. If you've read over the first 30 to 50 pages of The Standard of Perfection that's what is in this book and more.

It speaks on compensatory matings too. You may not always want to nor can breed the best to best. Get's you to mulling over how to improve your flock with what you have. If you read over the breeder and standard of perfection forum here you'll come across Fred's Hens saying the same thing. You'll get fine birds breeding best to best but you can get your best birds with compensatory matings. It's funny to think that the closest to Standard can come from two non standard birds but it's true.
 
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