The Great Winter Coop Humidity/Ventilation Experiment! Post Your Results Here!

[centrarchid]

Bee is truly the queen of DL management in the coop.  And I will say that the reason for her success is two fold:  First:  She has the ideal coop for DL success.  Mainly having a soil floor.  This allows all of the benneficials to travel freely through out that litter.  This includes bacteria, fungi, and insects.  Second:  She is a keen observer of all cycles of nature, and uses that observation to develop husbandry methods that are based on actual experience instead of book knowledge.  

I have had success with DL management in a CP hoop which had a soil floor.  That coop is now too small for my current flock needs, but I still keep it available.  (the 4 x 8 loft of it makes a perfect chick brooder, then they can be let into the lower 8 x 12 DL area after they are 2 - 3 weeks old.)  When not brooding chicks, my adult flock run to that DL coop when ever they are allowed out to free range.  Current coop is conventional stick built with vinyl over plywood floor.  Have tried for last 2.5 years to get successful DL going, using the right mass, and the right ingredients, including inoculation with soil and compost from my garden, and not been successful.

That is not good to say experienced based learning only is the way to go. The preponderance of people that effect changes for the better with culture systems and all sorts of technology are rooted in both experience and book knowledge. What you have above as written implies book knowledge is bad.

 

[MollySunshine]

That is not good to say experienced based learning only is the way to go. The preponderance of people that effect changes for the better with culture systems and all sorts of technology are rooted in both experience and book knowledge. What you have above as written implies book knowledge is bad.

If I may put in my 2 cents worth. Because I love a good debate

I think we can all agree (perhaps) that what is learned in textbooks provides a great foundation of which all is built. I speak of my own schooled experiences in a wide array of technologies; what I learned from a textbook and how it related to real life experience in that trade, was different. It was always, ok, I learned this theory, now how do I apply it to real life. I give great stock to real life experience. So I am agreeing to what you say, but adding that book knowledge is limited.

What I am also learning is what I have naively thought of as short lived DLM in my own coop is probably more as described above as the diaper affect. I know that I did at one time obtain heat. I began using leaves and mixing Dookaishi as the accelerant. The leaves break down much quicker than shavings etc. I suppose I should be content with my efforts provided there is no ammonia odor or poop odor? Is all copacetic or am I fooling myself there too? arrrgh.....!

 

[centrarchid]

I have train people in culture technologies. To do a good job and keep learning curve steep, my students / farmers must use experiential learning and book smarts to make adjustments. A co-worker deals explicitly with various composting methods. In order for her to help farmers / land owners make a given system work that differs from one down the road, the book smart side makes so she can rapidly take advantage of known interactions between compost unit size / design and the types of carbon and nitrogen / phosphate rich sources to comes up with adjustments allowing for consistent production regardless of season. Book smarts makes easy to operate outside and between boxes of thought and to extrapolate.

 

[Beekissed]

One more thing as relates to deep litter vs. compost. While they may be synergistic in some situations, that may not always be the case. In general, the purpose of the litter first and foremost is to deal with and absorb the manure, which has both a heavy nitrogen component, but also contains the moisture content that is generally associated with urine. With chickens, it all comes out together. But in a tight. closed up house in winter with a high density bird population, that can contribute to the moisture levels to the extent it contributes to frostbite in very cold weather. Deep litter helps absorb that moisture from the manure, along with the other solids in the manure.

I think the diaper analogy holds true.......purpose of litter is like that of a disposable diaper and serves the same purpose.

This is a pretty good explanation of the composting process and what it takes to get a hot composting process going:

https://deepgreenpermaculture.com/diy-instructions/hot-compost-composting-in-18-days/

When you start out with high carbon litter, such as leaves, wood chips, hay, straw, etc, and not much in the way of greens, or the Nitrogen component, the Nitrogen needed to feed the bugs that get the composting process going comes from the manure or droppings. So when you start out with fresh deep litter, you will be sorely lacking Nitrogen and moisture. Essentially, you are buying an extended wearing time for the diaper. Overnight Huggies. The deeper it gets, the more time you get. As ground moisture is added, as moisture from the manure gets added, as moisture is absorbed from condensation, etc, it all starts to come alive and will heat up, but in general, purpose of the litter is not to get a hot composting process going. Yes, it would generate some heat.......perhaps a lot of heat.......if that is your goal. But in general, I would submit that generating a lot of heat should not be your goal, as in addition to the heat, it will be giving off CO2 gas, which the birds also do......CO2 is toxic to them and must be vented, but to get a hot compost going also requires moisture be added....and that will also be added to the air......again, the same moisture we are trying to void.

The good news is that in the end of the cycle, when your deep litter is fully saturated and you are ready for a diaper change, the stuff you take out is almost like like a ready made compost firecracker ready to go off.......add some moisture, pile it deep and stand back.

The whole diaper thing USED to be what deep litter was about, but it doesn't actually change the fecal matter at all, nor helps it bind with the bedding materials....that generally has to take place after it's all removed from the coop and placed in a big ol' pile for time and weather to change. Meanwhile it just lies there being wet or dry, stinking and saturating the bedding, creating ammonia, until it has to be removed.

Now, however, many are composting right in the coop, creating a digestion of the fecal matter by utilizing hot compost. Those who want this desired result are planning for it with the right kind of ventilation...which is pretty much what this thread is all about. The right kind of ventilation can move that warm, moist air up past the birds on the roost and right out the top of the coop, along with the humidity they themselves create. In this manner, having wide ventilation that is highly adjustable, one can let in cold, fresh air but that cold air doesn't matter all that much when the heater is sitting beneath the roosts. Any ideas of too much CO2 is eliminated by this passive, but definite, airflow from the floor to the roof vents.

Anyone doing hot compost in their coop isn't likely to batten down the hatches and contain the humidity and CO2.

 

[MollySunshine]

I have train people in culture technologies. To do a good job and keep learning curve steep, my students / farmers must use experiential learning and book smarts to make adjustments. A co-worker deals explicitly with various composting methods. In order for her to help farmers / land owners make a given system work that differs from one down the road, the book smart side makes so she can rapidly take advantage of known interactions between compost unit size / design and the types of carbon and nitrogen / phosphate rich sources to comes up with adjustments allowing for consistent production regardless of season. Book smarts makes easy to operate outside and between boxes of thought and to extrapolate.

Exactly my point. Textbooks are one the tools of the trade sort of speak, as I said, the foundation. Now how do you use what you learned. I think we all know people who are book smart but are unable to apply a lick of it. Textbook learning, if used correctly, gives you the easier path from point A to B. It's a direct route to explain certain scenerios but I still feel real life experience lends itself great value. There's always extenuating circumstances that a book can't define. Real life experiences help in this case. Some is common sense or we pull from our other experiences to help guide us. I suppose as an example of what I am trying to convey is, in terms of raising chickens, I have read as much as I can from articles, books and even gained knowledge from others experiences but when faced with a real life situation, I needed to take all this information and process it. It gave me the foundation of which to work upon. And trust me, my chicken life is short lived and I have much to learn. I haven't faced all the obstacles there are. This I know. I won't act smug.

 

[lazy gardener]

One more thing as relates to deep litter vs. compost. While they may be synergistic in some situations, that may not always be the case. In general, the purpose of the litter first and foremost is to deal with and absorb the manure, which has both a heavy nitrogen component, but also contains the moisture content that is generally associated with urine. With chickens, it all comes out together. But in a tight. closed up house in winter with a high density bird population, that can contribute to the moisture levels to the extent it contributes to frostbite in very cold weather. Deep litter helps absorb that moisture from the manure, along with the other solids in the manure.

I think the diaper analogy holds true.......purpose of litter is like that of a disposable diaper and serves the same purpose.

This is a pretty good explanation of the composting process and what it takes to get a hot composting process going:

https://deepgreenpermaculture.com/diy-instructions/hot-compost-composting-in-18-days/

When you start out with high carbon litter, such as leaves, wood chips, hay, straw, etc, and not much in the way of greens, or the Nitrogen component, the Nitrogen needed to feed the bugs that get the composting process going comes from the manure or droppings. So when you start out with fresh deep litter, you will be sorely lacking Nitrogen and moisture. Essentially, you are buying an extended wearing time for the diaper. Overnight Huggies. The deeper it gets, the more time you get. As ground moisture is added, as moisture from the manure gets added, as moisture is absorbed from condensation, etc, it all starts to come alive and will heat up, but in general, purpose of the litter is not to get a hot composting process going. Yes, it would generate some heat.......perhaps a lot of heat.......if that is your goal. But in general, I would submit that generating a lot of heat should not be your goal, as in addition to the heat, it will be giving off CO2 gas, which the birds also do......CO2 is toxic to them and must be vented, but to get a hot compost going also requires moisture be added....and that will also be added to the air......again, the same moisture we are trying to void.

The good news is that in the end of the cycle, when your deep litter is fully saturated and you are ready for a diaper change, the stuff you take out is almost like like a ready made compost firecracker ready to go off.......add some moisture, pile it deep and stand back.

Waiting for Bee to chime back here, but until she does, I'll stick my toe in: Re: generation of CO2, and the moisture issue: I feel fairly confident that Bee would state, that an adequately ventilated coop has 0 issue with excess moisture, excess CO2, or even any detectable ammonia. The moisture is held quite nicely under the cap of dry litter on the top, the ammonia is nicely broken down by a mature composting process. A truly functioning DL never has to be removed from the coop, you merely keep adding raw materials. You can harvest some of that black gold for your gardens, but it is never necessary to do so. I found in my well working DL in the old coop that the DL simply melted into the soil. My biggest issue was keeping enough raw materials going into the DL to keep feeding the beneficial organisms.

If I may put in my 2 cents worth. Because I love a good debate

I think we can all agree (perhaps) that what is learned in textbooks provides a great foundation of which all is built. I speak of my own schooled experiences in a wide array of technologies; what I learned from a textbook and how it related to real life experience in that trade, was different. It was always, ok, I learned this theory, now how do I apply it to real life. I give great stock to real life experience. So I am agreeing to what you say, but adding that book knowledge is limited.

What I am also learning is what I have naively thought of as short lived DLM in my own coop is probably more as described above as the diaper affect. I know that I did at one time obtain heat. I began using leaves and mixing Dookaishi as the accelerant. The leaves break down much quicker than shavings etc. I suppose I should be content with my efforts provided there is no ammonia odor or poop odor? Is all copacetic or am I fooling myself there too? arrrgh.....!

Molly, agreed, reading is a great way to obtain knowledge. I love to soak up the information in a good book. But after the reading comes the analysis. This is where the true learning comes into play. Just b/c someone says that this is how it's done, that doesn't make it so. Case in point: How many of us who garden using a roto tiller, and garden in rows, with those rows marching back and forth across the garden, and faithfully till or hoe between those rows to keep the weeds in check? Home gardens have followed that plan for a very long time, because they were based on big ag models, and because that's the way Dad, and GrandMa did it. Then along comes Ruth Stout and others behind her, and they started asking, WHY? And they started observing how God does it, and following suit. My tiller sits in the garage. The handles make nice hangers for other tools.

I'm currently studdying bee keeping to see if that is something that will be added here in the future. No way could I simply go out and "just start doing" to gain the needed knowledge base!

I think your assessment of short term DL being like a diaper is fairly accurate. And that DL IMO is still better than the usual coop management style of tossing in pine shavings, and raking them and the added poop out 1 - 2 weeks later... rinse and repeat... If you have no ammonia odor, and the poop odor is kept under control as well, you are doing something right. It's possible that if you kept going with your current process, and you have enough mass and enough moisture, you could get to a true composting DL in your coop. Only one way to find out, yes???

My current management is just that: short term DL, not true composting DL. But, when I do clean out the accumulation under the perches, it goes straight out the clean out door behind the perches and into the run. There, the birds work it over thoroughly. The weather gets at it, and it breaks down into an incredible black gold in a very short time. What PP said with the diaper/firecracker analogy. Toss it out of the coop into a pile and stand back

 

[MollySunshine]

Lazy gardener: Your last comment made me lol...literally.
I suppose what I've been trying to say all along is this, we all have heard the saying, there's more than one way to skin a cat. There is textbook theory (which is valuable) but it's usually real life knowledge in any given situation that helps refute facts or as you mentioned, processes. Unless we use what we learned and think for ourselves we never evolve. Society as a whole never would have made the gains we have if we simply stayed the course....because we read it in a book somewhere. I'm not trying to come across as an a** but I personally place a lot of credence to ones experiences.

My coop: yes, I am staying the course to try to learn something from what I am doing currently. I know I have not cleaned out my coop in months. I have added more leaves etc. as needed and treat it as a compost. There's twigs in there and yes, I have placed a small amount of shavings only to add a variety of texture. As I do in my runs. Which by the way are looking fabulous! The only thing in them that hasn't broken down is the hay that I recently added. I was thinking this morning, as I was opening the pop doors, that I really could shovel some of the new dirt out and use it in a garden this summer. It's gorgeous! Nice dark brown, rich in nutrients. This is the state I want to obtain in my coop.....if possible. Oh, btw, my run knowledge was obtained by Beekissed. I give credit where it is due. I didn't have a clue about composting.

So going back to humidity of the coop. The boys coops was higher than the girls this morning. It was 60% and the temp. was 32F. The girls coop was 40% and temps. were low 30's also. I'm thinking since I smelled the slightest hint of ammonia in the boys coop, it may attribute to the rise of humidity. The leaves are becoming saturated, hence excess is being emitted into the air. I added a small amount of leaves and tossed well. My Dookaishi is due to arrive today. I will add some as directed to help dry it out.

 

[ckelley]

My current coop is too small for DLM. I'm going to have to build a second coop and I really like this concept. What would you suggest to get a good base layer? Also, what organics can I toss on there? I doubt they would survive long, but veggie bits and scraps?

 

[lazy gardener]

Lazy gardener: Your last comment made me lol...literally.
I suppose what I've been trying to say all along is this, we all have heard the saying, there's more than one way to skin a cat. There is textbook theory (which is valuable) but it's usually real life knowledge in any given situation that helps refute facts or as you mentioned, processes. Unless we use what we learned and think for ourselves we never evolve. Society as a whole never would have made the gains we have if we simply stayed the course....because we read it in a book somewhere. I'm not trying to come across as an a** but I personally place a lot of credence to ones experiences.

My coop: yes, I am staying the course to try to learn something from what I am doing currently. I know I have not cleaned out my coop in months. I have added more leaves etc. as needed and treat it as a compost. There's twigs in there and yes, I have placed a small amount of shavings only to add a variety of texture. As I do in my runs. Which by the way are looking fabulous! The only thing in them that hasn't broken down is the hay that I recently added. I was thinking this morning, as I was opening the pop doors, that I really could shovel some of the new dirt out and use it in a garden this summer. It's gorgeous! Nice dark brown, rich in nutrients. This is the state I want to obtain in my coop.....if possible. Oh, btw, my run knowledge was obtained by Beekissed. I give credit where it is due. I didn't have a clue about composting.

So going back to humidity of the coop. The boys coops was higher than the girls this morning. It was 60% and the temp. was 32F. The girls coop was 40% and temps. were low 30's also. I'm thinking since I smelled the slightest hint of ammonia in the boys coop, it may attribute to the rise of humidity. The leaves are becoming saturated, hence excess is being emitted into the air. I added a small amount of leaves and tossed well. My Dookaishi is due to arrive today. I will add some as directed to help dry it out.

My understanding is that when ammonia smell is noted, addition of more dry/high carbon matter, and increasing ventilation should rectify.

My current coop is too small for DLM. I'm going to have to build a second coop and I really like this concept. What would you suggest to get a good base layer? Also, what organics can I toss on there? I doubt they would survive long, but veggie bits and scraps?

If I were to build an other coop, with DL management in mind, and I had a nice dry place to do so, this is what I'd do" I'd level the area, and lay a base of cinder blocks. Then I'd put a skirt around the cinder blocks, digging it straight down a foot below the CB base, or laying it about 4 - 6" below grade and laying it OUT away from CB base at least 18". I'd then build up from the CB base. I have no real construction experience, so can't tell you how sturdy such construction would be. Your other option, based on your climate might be to build a cattle panel coop. I like my CP coop, and the ease of construction, as well as the ease of doing so without having to consider foundations. The one thing I dislike about CP construction is that they usually employ tarps for cover which require replacement due to UV degradation. Take a very close look at the Woods style coop. This is a winner IMO. And I've considered the option of building traditional stick construction for the back end, and using CP for the front end. This would give you the best of both worlds as well as providing excellent ventilation and a means of heating the coop from the heat generated by the DL in the CP front.

If you have a good dry spot, simply use the existing soil as your base. If you are more soil challenged, perhaps you could lay a sand/gravel base, and then start building up from there with leaves, grass clippings, wood chips, garden debris, hay, and basically any compostable material you can get your hands on.

 

[MollySunshine]

Lazy gardener: the added leaves sufficed, fortunately. If, and I am tending to agree, (definately scratching my head with this concept) that all that is occurring is this "diaper" theory, the carbon matter (leaves) I suspect are now super saturated. At least the leaves that had come in contact with the overnight droppings. After I added the leaves and tossed, the odor dissipated. I use the Dookaishi because it is said to neutralize ammonia, dry and aid in the breakdown process. Plus it's all natural. If I am getting any breakdown at all and this product helps, I'm sticking with it until I prove to myself otherwise. At this point in time, added ventilation wasn't necessary. I hope I'm not being thick headed in my thinking. It's an easy adjustment if I do need to incorporate.