The Natural Chicken Keeping thread - OTs welcome!

[Bulldogma]

This will be a thread dedicated to natural, chemical free chicken keeping. The "rules" are simple (for now).

Rule #1: Everyone has different ways of doing things - Please... we don't want to get into any "I'm right, you're wrong," stuff here.

Rule #2: Share for the sake of sharing - good, all natural chicken keeping.

Rule #3: Culling - death is a part of life. If you don't like it, you probably don't need to be on this thread. People who keep flocks for meat are welcome here!


So - let's keep it friendly, and please, let it roll off your back if someone says something you don't like.


PLEASE READ!!!

As much as we encourage the "sharing of information on BYC". This thread has been reported many times and is quickly turning into a promotions spot for several blogs, and has thus become a staging area that directly violates BYC policy. Please continue to discuss options on this thread at will. All links and references to other blogs and forums will be removed at the staffs discretion as noted in the BYC rules section. If this does not work we have no choice but to close this thread and any future rebirths of it.

 

[delisha]

Cute names,

Naming them or not naming them does not make it easier to kill them. After 30 years it still bothers me to kill them. It is fine after they are dead and I butcher them out. I like to take them apart and examine them. It is imperative that I make sure the flock is healthy, that they are eating properly, making sure the muscle tone is correct. If they have too much fat or not enough. I look for healthy kidneys, healthy sex organs, I make sure the heart is a good size. The inside of the gizzard tell me if I need to add grit or if they are getting enough. These things you can't see unless you look. I am always so relieved when I am done that the chickens are healthy. I raise Cornish X's several times a year. I purchase 50 chicks, raise them up to 6 weeks and butcher out one chicken. That purpose is to check organs. This particular breed has internal organ problems. The heart is pretty large at a young age. Fast growth puts tremendous pressure on organs. If that chicken is healthy I grow out another week and sell half at a fair. If it look like they might be stressing I sell that week or butcher that week. I will not sell weak or unhealthy chickens. Other people are going to open them up and look at them. I want them to know they made a good purchase. Butchering out my chickens allow me to have proof in my hands I am doing a good job. The inside of a chicken is the best indicator that you are doing what is right. When you open the intestines you check for worms too. Killing your chickens and opening them up to check the heath of your flock is part of the husbandry. It is just not the fun part. Killing your chickens when you have an ill or an old chicken is part of that responsibility also.

 

[Leahs Mom]

The All Glass Natural Chicken Keeping Waterer



Y'all have heard me talking about using glass forever and all the "evils" of plastic.

I get especially concerned about the xenoestrogens in plastics and other manufactured products, siding on our houses, paints, pesticides in our foods and in the environment, etc. etc., etc.

There are so many people that are having estrogen-related issues due to overload in our modern times that I like to avoid plastics as much as possible. I surely don't want to add more estrogens to my food supply! (After all, healthy food is one of the main reasons I have the chickens!) See some links at the bottom of this post if you're interested in reading more about it.

Animal health and longevity are also at risk from these same factors...

Anyhow...I digress.

So I've been trying to come up with an all-glass waterer that is easy to fill, use, clean, and has a nice flat bottom so that it can sit on a water heating base in the winter if necessary. It was when MLOwen posted the waterer that the "lightbulb" went on for me and I realized that I could make one from glass pretty easily.


So why don't I just use a glass bowl?
This waterer will be my INDOOR, year-round waterer. In the summer I put pyrex pans outside with water in various places so they can drink and stand in them if they want. But I always keep a main waterer in the hen house year-round.

In the year-round waterer, (whether used indoors or out) I don't want to have a large, open bowl getting dirt and shavings kicked into it AND I don't want any possibility of them stepping in the water in the winter and getting frost bite. I only want a small opening for them to drink from.

You might ask why I wouldn't just use my "vintage" glass waterers that work with an upside down canning jar since they are both glass and have a restricted area to drink from.
I have several reasons:

1. You have to turn it upside down just like the plastic base, canning jar waterers that you can get everywhere.. I HATE having to turn waterers upside down. Additionally, the glass vintage kind doesn't allow the jar to be screwed in place so you have to pick up the base and jar together when you want to empty, clean and refill. I'd like to just be able to pick it up and set it down like normal without dumping water all over....and maybe wash out the dish part without having to dump out the whole waterer.

The Vintage Jar Waterer:

2. The base is not flat on the bottom so it doesn't make good contact with a heater base. It only has a relatively thin rim that it sits on. It was enough to keep the water open in the dish, but the water in the jar would begin to freeze from the top down.

See how the base only has a rim (not a great photo)

3. I wanted to be able to make a waterer that would hold more than a quart if I wanted to.

So Why do they make them upside down anyway?
Because you have to have an air-tight seal or the water will just pour right out the bottom and spill everywhere.

So...on to:
The All-Glass Natural Chicken Keeping Glass Waterer

- I used a canning jar and a glass bowl (Anchor Glass). The canning jar shown here is 1/2 gallon capacity and I found the PERFECT SIZE glass bowl after some searching around.

-I set the jar into the bowl and made a mark on the glass at the height of the bowl top. The Hole needs to be drilled below the bowl height, of course, as the water depth in the bowl will raise to the top of the height of the hole.

- Purchased a a 1/2" glass and tile drill bit. (Tried using a smaller bit first, but found that 1/2" worked very well for water flow.)



- Then, very carefully drilled a hole at the right height. This is the tricky part as drilling glass can be a little unstable. I tried 2 different kinds of bits and liked the one shown best. I wore goggles, long sleeves and gloves just in case there was a shatter. I also practiced on a different jar the first time. Not one mishap!

I was very careful to wash out the jar and re-wash out the jar, as well as testing the edge of the drilled hole to be sure no glass shards or sharp edges were left to harm the chickens.

-Now I needed an AIR TIGHT LID. Canning jar flat lids will make an air-tight seal when screwed down tight. (These are easily replacable when needed...available everywhere!) I put one inside one of the plastic lids designed for canning jars to make the seal. However, you can use a regular metal ring rather than the plastic. I used the plastic ones because I happened to have one and because I know that the metal ones can rust and deteriorate and become hard to remove over time. THE PLASTIC AND THE FLAT LID WILL NOT COME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER.

-When I fill the canning jar, I simply put my thumb flat over the hole. You could use a cork if desired, but the thumb method seems to work just fine. After it is filled, keeping the thumb over the hole, screw the flat down tight using either the plastic lid or metal ring. You can now either lay the canning jar down flat on it's back with the hole up and remove your thumb from the hole as the water won't spill out, or just keep your thumb over the hole while carrying it out to put in the bowl.

-To put it in the bowl, put your thumb over the hole, put the jar over the bowl, remove thumb and set the jar into the bowl. It won't dump much water at that point so you have plenty of time to get it settled down into the bowl while holding the jar from the top.

-It will fill right up to the the top of the hole level and stop. Refilling as the birds drink just to the level of the hole as long as the seal is screwed down tight to make it air tight.

-When I need to clean the bowl or refill the jar, I can lift it right up (upright) and tilt it back with the hole up. I have laid it on the floor on it's back or on top of any other surface as the canning jars have "flat sides" and won't roll away. Pick up the bowl, dump and rinse out, replace the bowl and put the jar back in if not adding more water. Or rinse out the jar, re-fill as above, and replace onto the bowl.

Want One Ready-Made?

I know that a lot of folks might be leery of drilling glass so I'm willing to make and sell these if you would like to have one for yourself but either don't want to invest in a glass drill bit or don't want to try drilling yourself. You can pm me for details.


Much thanks to mlowen for the inspiration!

A few Plastic/Estrogen related links:
-Here's a link with a quick list of items from which we get estrogens. http://endojourney.wordpress.com/2009/07/31/a-list-of-xenoestrogens/

- Article: The Terrible Truth About Plastics...http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...rible-truth-about-plastic-you-never-knew.aspx

-Plastics Affecting Children's Health http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...wave-your-toddlers-food-in-plastic-bowls.aspx

Much, much more out there on xenoestrogens and estrogens. Google "estrogens in the environment" for more info...how they effect cancer, development in boys, etc.

 

[Allysha1990]

I present to you, the Egg of Victory!

 

[Mumsy]

Mumsy, when I read your initial post, I thought of this. In humans they call it dissecting interstitial emphysema from perforation of the trachea or lung. It can be caused by blunt trauma, aspiration, or severe coughing. The bird can get better if the leak is small or seals itself.

Thank you. That is very interesting.

I am so thankful for all of the kind words directed my way. This was a tough one.

My husband just came home and I could not describe what happened without showing him the photos of the necropsy and explaining in every detail what I saw, did, and experienced today. His jaw dropped when he saw the photos. Then he gave me a big bear hug and told me I'm an incredible person. He buried the remains out in the raspberry patch. The poor Balloon Chicken will now nourish the ground that our food is produced from.

We talked through the events of this chickens last hours of life and feel this bird had some kind of catastrophic event happen when it gorged itself with feed this morning. We may never know exactly what happened but we feel it was a rare and unusual event. My husband is very proud of me for dealing with this all by myself today. I told him I wasn't alone. I had my friends here on this thread to see me through it.

Thank you truly. You all are a great group of folks.

 

[bruceh]

hello all,
sorry i have not posted i have been very very busy. so i am going to post what the difference is between keeping birds in good conditions and poor conditions. i did this on purpose so i could personally see the results . i took a bunch of birds placed them in factory like settings. these are the conclusions.

birds kept in my normal healthy conditions thrived and did very well with minimal losses. in fact i never lost a bird because i did not know what happened. example possum or other pred. attacks.so therefore i know that healthy conditions work very well.
in the normal conditions i use mill feed , a certain formula i use ( fermented ) and the use of apple cider vinegar in the water and cleanliness

factory conditions experiment:

first i over crowded the brooder with about 70 chicks. at 3 weeks i lost a total of 20 chicks.. i never used acv in the water. the feed was junk feed and just wet not fermented the litter changed 1 time.
at 3 weeks they were moved to a shed and i set it up to the standards of a factory free range environment . they had access to the outside by the use of a door and a 5 ft run for 50 birds. i never used acv in the water and junk feed. the birds are fair at best. i have lost 9 more birds. no warning when the birds died. they were just dead.. some went down on the legs and immediately killed. today i went out and found a wry neck bird. first time i ever seen it . i also keep the area just like a factory.never cleaned at all. stinks to high heaven.

the results are obvious. . so it is your choice. i did the study for you all.

just so everyone knows when the group of meat birds are done the layers pullets will be rehabbed to top notch health. this will include all good feed acv. a bath for them. also i will have to spend hours disinfecting that particular coop.all my well kept birds are off the property . thanks to my neighbors for helping with this.

so out of 70 to date i have lost about 30.. sickens me. so call your food industry rep or FDA. i find this very cruel and preventable with 3 simple steps. acv in water, good feed, and most important cleanliness.

thanks for reading,


bruce h.

oh boy have i gotten flack for this post i fully knew the consequences when i posted the findings of this experiment . i did this because i wanted to see first hand on the effects on proper and improper care of birds. i am around a lot of folks everyday who think well they are just birds who cares how they are kept. i knew of broiler houses and the egg laying industry. however 2ND hand. other than you tube ,Internet and someone told to do this sources how many folks really know first hand. yes there are some that do. however the majority do not have this knowledge first hand.
is it offensive to some? yes it is. it is not something i would do on any other basis. folks that know of me on this thread and other threads know of my husbandry practices . this was a test to see first hand knowledge of the effects of poor husbandry. i am sorry those birds died as well. now that i have the answers first hand i can explain to others in a more productive manner.
i am sorry for the offense taken by others . however education comes at a cost. so if i can show the effects to others, others may improve their practices.

for those of you who do not know me. i have helped many folks with their questions. i raise wonderful layers and breed heritage rhode island reds to the s.o.p.

bruce h.

 

[delisha]

I'm officially clueless now... I treated my bird for impacted crop for over two weeks with no improvement, so I left her for a week just to see what happened. Didn't change at all. I'm think surgery now, she getting weaker, and her comb is pale. She's still eating, but something is going on in there. The weird part is that the mass isn't hard, but very soft and pliable. Could it be some type of tumor? And advice would be appreciated.

Do you have anything for female yeast infections? If you do.. give her about a pea size. She possibly had an obstruction and now she possibly has a yeast infection. You probably should give her fine ground up oregano and garlic too. You need to keep working that crop. Surgery at this point will probably kill her, however if you make that decision, it will be a learning tool to use in the future. If she has gone a whole week with no intervention she probably has no reserves left.

I am thinking if nothing has moved..she has something else wrong and the crop issues is secondary. I am leaning towards cocci or an infection. You might have to be more aggressive and give her a shot of antibiotic. I am not a proponent of antibiotics, however you are in a place you need to do something radical. If she was a cull able bird of mine I would use her for surgery practice. If she was valuable I would do the shot first and probably use a stomach tube to fill the crop with food until she recovered. Personally in this condition I would cull to save her some pain, than preform the surgery and do a necropsy to find out why she was ill.


A side note to all who read this..this is a learning tool and nothing more. This is not directed to anyone, it is directed to everyone. This is just my opinion

leaving a bird with out intervention when it can't eat and process its food will leave it to starve to death slowly. Please do your birds a favor and cull it. If you can't do it, please get someone who can and will. Everyone who owns chickens needs to cull..Everyone. Chickens do not live a long life. You will have sick chickens. We do not have access to vets and the expense does not meet the necessity of vets getting experience with chickens. Make a plan about the future of your flock. Make commitments on your flocks health and stick to it. Chickens do not complain. To survive they need to hid illness and pain. You need to be a good steward and know your chickens. Know the signs of a healthy bird. If it is not healthy and is acting off, fix it. If you can't fix it in ( blank days)cull it. Having ill birds attract predators to your coop and you risk your whole flock. If you do not have the time to know your birds, you have too many. Cut back a little and give yourself some time to know and understand chickens. Experienced chicken keepers can walk into a coop with 50 birds and know something is not right. They can look into a field of 100 birds and know too. They did not know in a few months, they know threw years and years.

 

[RedRidge]

OK... I'm going to clarify... and possibly contradict... but bear with me...
First of all... everyone needs to understand there is a HUGE difference in an lgd and a herding dog.
I have herding dogs... competitive ones... they are NOT lgds and never could be.
Now...that said... there are such things as generic farm dogs.
For many folks a farm dog is adequate as what most people really need is simply a deterrent.
You have a dog, it's doesn't hurt your livestock, it barks at unwelcome visitors - it deters.

LGD's... let's generalize... yes some breeds "in general" like to roam.
However... many people blame their roaming on the breed when in fact the owners should be blamed... the dogs as pups were not taught to respect their fencing and/or owners refuse to have them spayed or neutered. Pyrs are known to be roamers... yet this is an unfair statement.
What pyrs really are is "perimeter guardians". However... it is very difficult for a pyr to guard a perimeter if that perimeter is not well defined and a precedence set at a young age.

Training... very little training is actually required. Trust me, I LOVE to train... I'm a competition obedience trainer.
You should have to do very little training with an lgd.
Mine learn to walk politely (not heal), just don't drag me... they know their name, "sit" (which they have to do before each meal), "off" (don't jump on me), "grrr" (equivalent of NO, don't do that, stop what you are doing), and "wait". That is ALL the commands they know other than their name.
Drop its and recalls are for obedience dogs... you do NOT want an obedience dog, you want a guardian who respects you. Obeying commands is not what earns respect. Respect is earned by having proper timing. This is VERY difficult to get people to understand and it the #1 reason so many lgd's end up in rescue.
It is rarely because it is a bad dog... almost always because it is a bad owner. Harsh, but true.

So... 90% of what allows an lgd to become a "good" lgd, is an owner that understands how an lgd thinks and has the proper timing to avoid problems.
The proper timing... as in... young enough and soon enough.
The most important thing an lgd needs to be permitted to develop is a BOND with their livestock.
Not a "I won't eat them" bond, or a "see mom, I'm not playing with them" bond... but the kind of bond where they will STAY by their side no matter what!
LGD's who roam were never properly bonded to their livestock at the right age. Oh, they love them... but they weren't allow to develop that bond.
When is that bond formed? From the second they open their eyes.
My pups have been with poultry from the time they were born... it is what they know and what they are bonded with.
They also have NO IDEA where I live... where my house is. I am simply the human that shows up every once in a while and brings food.
An lgd that leaves it's livestock EVER is not properly bonded - period!!
That's a totally different problem... and people resort to obedience because they missed the window of opportunity to bond.
I can train any dog to be obedient... any dog to not kill livestock... I can even keep any dog in with the right kind of fencing...
But I cannot make him want to stay there no matter what... worse than wanting to be dry and warm, worse than chasing a car, worse than not be willing to die to protect the livestock. IF you miss that window in time obedience will get you the "appearance" of an lgd... but when push comes to shove that appearance is nothing more than a deterrent... that dog won't give it's life for his chickens when 3 cougars show up... it'll run to your back door instead.

Too many people try to bond lgd's to livestock when they are teenagers (6-12 months old)... it "can" be done... but the strong bond that exists between those who are born into that relationship will never be there.
So... part one of timing is the breeders responsibility.
Part two, is timing on the new owners part. Most humans cannot react quick enough to correct a dog in such a way that that dog has a clue what it did wrong.
Three tenths of a second... that's how quick you must be. So... if you don't catch them in the act and communicate to them that what they are doing is wrong, then all they learn is that you get mad... they have no idea why... they just learn to stay out of your way when it happens.
It's like the dog that potties in the house... they learn NOTHING if you fuss at them "after" it happens. No, that's not true... they learn they can make you angry... they just haven't a clue how they did it so they don't know how to prevent it the next time.

My 8 week old pups are currently on a 1/2 acre with poultry. In the next few weeks one of them (and I can tell you which one

) will decide to chase one of them pullets or hens. I have a pen of cockerels just waiting for that to happen. You don't need lots of land or large livestock. You need appropriate livestock for the temperament and age. You need to remember that babies NEVER go with babies... pups with chicks is a no-no. It is simply a matter of timing... pup will chase, I will correct before any damage is done, cockerels will spend the next month reinforcing my correction. Pup will NEVER chase a chicken again... because he was "told clearly" one time that that is a no-no. Being told isn't enough... they need to understand... the timing is critical.
It doesn't take weeks or months... it takes one time.
So... who has the time? NO ONE!! Easy solution... you set them up... set em up to fail when you can assure you will have the proper timing.
That's why I have pups here still... they don't leave for another month... they will be able to go right in with their poultry, goats, sheep... whatever... and will never have to be taken out. Will they be perfect? No, they are pups... they will chew, they will corner if they can... but ask yourself this... what are their corners?

My chickens sleep on the backs of maremma... it's a trust issue... that bond works both ways.
So... timing is what is lacking for most folks... they have a full time job, they work away from home, they have no choice but to leave 7 mo old pup with poultry or lock it up. NEVER lock up an lgd... you are telling them you don't want them to do their job. You are denying them the one thing you want them to bond with. There are easy solutions to the challenges you face when the pups are teenagers... IF the foundation was laid correctly by the breeder.
If not, then you, the owner, have to get an even bigger education and learn how to counteract what should have been reinforced earlier on.

OK... enough of a lecture... Just remember that if you have a farm dog you can't expect it to be an lgd....
And if you have an lgd, you can't expect it to be a farm dog.
As long as you know what breed you are dealing with and have proper expectations, raising either is a blast and is very rewarding.
OK... sun is going down so I have maremma to feed.... 8 of them right now (one pup left already - whew)

 

[delisha]

update..

I have been treating all of the birds... I have not lost any today and some of the older birds who could not walk yesterday were up today. I pretty much think all of the chick are not going to make it and I am not really working with them much. They are so small and internal damage could be significant from even a few days of poison. I worry about damage. If they make it I will just cull them as meat birds. I was going to cull them all last night and decided to give them all another 24 hours. I will probably regret my decision since it was more emotional than good sense. I think I am over the hump with the adults. Now the hard work starts. I have to detox and pro gel for three weeks and send one off to the lab at the end of three weeks to see how much damage I did to them. They want me to put them on antibiotics after the detox since now they are more vulnerable to respiratory problems. I do not know if I can do that. I have a few weeks to make up my mind. My birds were strong before and that also helped to save most of them. I just hope I did not destroy their livers and gizzards. I think if I give them antibiotics i will destine them to liver failure for sure.


Thank you all so much for the links..the reading and calling and getting them on detox and pro gel so quickly probably saved them. They responded in less than 12 hours. It was remarkable. As a group you are the best. If my flock is saved..you all did it.

I am so grateful and thankful this Thanksgiving for wonderful people on this thread in my life..
I wish you and your family's a wonderful Thanksgiving.

 

[Lacy Blues]

Thank you lalaland.

I always like first hand knowledge to help weigh my decisions before I jump into something new. I like to know as many pro's and con's about something new so I know what to look out for.

Sounds kinda OCD but that's just how my thought process works.....

... stepping up onto soap box for a second or two...

There is an awful lot of finger pointing going on in the world today. They call it OCD, and I'm leaning toward the belief that lazy people have coined it. If you do anything very well, you're OCD. If you think about doing anything very well, you're labeled OCD. If it bothers you that you haven't done your best, you're OCD.

I grew up in a generation that believed "If anything is worth doing, it's worth doing well."

So, throw off the shackles that keep you from living a life that is as fulfilling as you want it to be. If you want to worry and fret over something that is yours to worry and fret over, if you want to do something properly the first time so you don't have to go back and fix it later, if you want to be proud of a job well done, then do it. Don't let some finger pointing sluggard force you into mediocrity!

GO FOR IT!