The Natural Chicken Keeping thread - OTs welcome!

[dutchlion]

@dutchlion
Both of your experiences are very similar to what I keep hearing from folks that purchase started birds. Makes me

It gives me more reinforcement to stick with my decision NOT to purchase started birds.

I've wavered on that a couple times, but now reading this - which is adding to a heap of folks I already know who have experienced similar - it helps me keep my resolve.

i've read about someone else who had an issue similar to this as well- she is a few hours south of me. I thought maybe it was a regional thing due to the relentless heat and humidity we've had here. but @Juleschicks is all the way on the other side of the country.

i've purchased started birds from people that i know and have not had issues. this is an issue with care/cleanliness/bio security. when we picked up the chickens we were not allowed into the pens, but we were allowed right next to them. and if that was the case with everyone who purchased birds from him, then anyone could have brought disease with them. it's my fault- i shouldn't have purchased them. but now that i have i have to deal with i; and the flip side to that is that he should have been honest with me about ANY of his birds showing ANY signs of illness.

 

[Leahs Mom]

I personally don't use pharmaceutical antibiotics for disease. I will use antibiotic if needed for an injury. (Reserved for emergency only.....)

That's my personal philosophy of "natural" husbandry. My goal is to propagate birds that have strong, healthy immune systems and avoid the growth of antibiotic resistant bacteria.

 

[Lacy Blues]

the Tylan i found here wasn't for poultry and i was afraid to use it. should i try a round of it?

That is completely up to you.

What does your Tylan say? Is it an injectable like you mentioned before or a powder?

I agree with Leah's Mom. I prefer not to use the stuff. If I can stay ahead of my birds, watching the weather situations, etc, I think I can keep them strong with judicious use of probiotics and electrolyte/vitamin/mineral supplementation in times of stress such as high heat which is coming tomorrow. It will be above 100 degrees for the next two weeks which is just plain disgusting but what can you do? Right now its hitting mid 90s and that's plenty hot.

 

[dutchlion]

i don't like to use abx normally either. i just was at a complete loss

especially after he told me that he had other birds that were showing symptoms.

has anyone used oregano (oil or otherwise) with success? i have been adding garlic to their water and also offering probiotic water. the BPR is still sneezing pretty consistently and "patient zero" (aka the mottled java) is still showing signs of a runny nose and the bottom of her left eye looks droopy.

could part of why they are not recuperating is the weather? they were outside before we got them, and now in my sunroom (which is not climate controlled) with fans. i could move them down to the basement which is at least cooler and less humid.

i'm really wanting to get them healthy.

 

[Leahs Mom]

I have fed dry organic oregano from time to time. Not for anything in particular, I used to just add it into the feed in the winter on occasion.

Oregano oil is very strong. I usually have the dry organic Frontier oregano that I can purchase in a lb. package from one of the local stores for a reasonable price. Then I seal it into a jar with my jar sealer and put some in from time to time. I have used a drop or 2 of the eo on occasion when using the dry, but it is very strong so I wouldn't use much.

I didn't give it for any particular reason.... no illness.... so I don't have experience to know what it would do for the symptoms you're seeing.

 

[Lacy Blues]

i don't like to use abx normally either. i just was at a complete loss

especially after he told me that he had other birds that were showing symptoms.

has anyone used oregano (oil or otherwise) with success? i have been adding garlic to their water and also offering probiotic water. the BPR is still sneezing pretty consistently and "patient zero" (aka the mottled java) is still showing signs of a runny nose and the bottom of her left eye looks droopy.

could part of why they are not recuperating is the weather? they were outside before we got them, and now in my sunroom (which is not climate controlled) with fans. i could move them down to the basement which is at least cooler and less humid.

i'm really wanting to get them healthy.

They're in a sunroom? How hot is it in there?

I would maybe try the basement. Heat is pretty hard on them and a sunroom is warmer than being outside in the sun.

 

[dutchlion]

They're in a sunroom?  How hot is it in there?  

I would maybe try the basement.  Heat is pretty hard on them and a sunroom is warmer than being outside in the sun.

I'm going to move them today. It's a three season room really, but its pretty warm in there... And I'm thinking it may not be giving them relief to recuperate.

 

[JulesChicks]

I guess thats the kind of response I might have expected from the breeders - if they were to allow themselves to consider there was a problem, that would be perhaps unthinkable to them. Not saying it is ok, but it is the kind of denial that some people practice when the reality is too tough - if their flock is infected then what? I'm thinking a good breeder would have carefully looked over the birds before selling them and would have noticed the nasal discharge. Also, would have said bring them back (even if they would have had to cull them versus risking bringing something from your place to theirs....)

Have you been offering free choice garlic - fresh, chopped - to the ill birds? its a good immune booster and antiviral. It will not hurt and could definitely support them. I would be sure to give them the choice. You might want to take one clove per bird, chopp it, and top dress it with a few bits of corn or oats or something that will appeal to them to get past the "its new and I don't like it" stage. If they take it all, offer more. If they leave it alone, try it again later with perhaps a different "bait" - maybe yogurt (unsweetened and with probiotics) or watermelon.

I am keeping my fingers crossed that you get the best news possible from the vet testing.

On the vetrx, it might make them more comfortable depending on how heavy the discharge is. You could discontinue it - when I use it, which is rare, I use it just a few days. I can't really provide any good reasoning for that however!

Thank you Lala. I tried the garlic mixed with plain yogurt and sprinkled their S&P over it (dried not fermented) and they only pecked at the top. Maybe I'll try the garlic mixed with just some FF tomorrow. I put a hanging feeder in their the other day, so I just gave them one serving of the FF today. I tried the Vetrx on them directly at least 5 days last week but may try again. I also tried it in their water (in a bowl on top like the directions say since it would only float on top of their chicken nipple bottles and they wouldn't get to it) and also sprinkled some in their feed.

@JulesChicks I have been reading your posts and had to look at your location (several times) because all the way across the country... I'm singing the same tune. I purchased 4 juveniles and 2 hens about 3 weeks ago from a heritage breeder. I did research and took my time being careful because, like you, i didn't want hatchery stock. I purchased 2 Javas (1 white and 1 mottled), 2 Amerucanas (1 blue and 1 black), and 2 Barred Rocks. I inspected them all when upon purchase. Within 24 hours of being home, the Mottled Java showed the same symptoms as your "patient zero". Then went the Blue Amerucana- but not nearly as bad (she never sneezed or had the runny nose- just slept a lot). Now one of the Barred Rocks- but only the sneezing.

They are all in quarantine away from all other chickens- and have been since we brought them home. Granted it's the waiting room of hell here (and has been for weeks) but we have fans going to keep the sauna like air moving. We are careful with biosecurity as well so we don't accidentally infect anyone else.

I emailed the breeder who told me that he had noticed several others with the same symptoms (DUDE! WHAT?!?!). His farm is NPIP certified. He had called the state vet and they recommended Tylan. I wasn't comfortable giving the chickens injections, so after several days of trying garlic water/ electrolytes &probiotics, we went the route of oxytetracyline- which seemed to help. But now based on what you've said from your vet (FDA regulations)- i've got 6 chickens (yep i treated everyone

) that i should have just taken back to the breeder or culled (which i don't really want to do). we use our chickens for laying hens and are starting up heritage breeding.
I have the State tech coming tomorrow

for our NPIP re-certification. what a hot mess.

What a bummer! Yes, it does seem like we're in a very similar situation. Since you were NPIP certified you know that that only covers a small number of diseases (or is it just one?) - but there are so many others that can make them sick. Some breeders are now advertising AI clean too. So sorry you are dealing with this. I got started pullets wanting eggs sooner and hoping they would be healthier but next time I will go with chicks - especially since I too like the heritage and rare breeds. How did your NPIP re-cert go??

@dutchlion
Both of your experiences are very similar to what I keep hearing from folks that purchase started birds. Makes me

It gives me more reinforcement to stick with my decision NOT to purchase started birds.

I've wavered on that a couple times, but now reading this - which is adding to a heap of folks I already know who have experienced similar - it helps me keep my resolve.

Ditto!

I personally don't use pharmaceutical antibiotics for disease. I will use antibiotic if needed for an injury. (Reserved for emergency only.....)

That's my personal philosophy of "natural" husbandry. My goal is to propagate birds that have strong, healthy immune systems and avoid the growth of antibiotic resistant bacteria.

I bought the antibiotics - the Duramycin was what the feed store has (tetracycline hydrochloride) but I haven't used it yet for this very reason - not to mention the new one the Vet gave me!

I have fed dry organic oregano from time to time. Not for anything in particular, I used to just add it into the feed in the winter on occasion.

Oregano oil is very strong. I usually have the dry organic Frontier oregano that I can purchase in a lb. package from one of the local stores for a reasonable price. Then I seal it into a jar with my jar sealer and put some in from time to time. I have used a drop or 2 of the eo on occasion when using the dry, but it is very strong so I wouldn't use much.

I didn't give it for any particular reason.... no illness.... so I don't have experience to know what it would do for the symptoms you're seeing.

I was also wondering about oregano oil. I need to research EOs that are safe for poultry. I've read articles but I don't think there were as in depth as they could have been.

I meant to ask, on the garlic in the water, do you just bruise it and plop the clove in? They have chicken nipple water bottles in their tractor so I don't want to clog up the nipples.

Update:
So, I took the sick bird back again because the Vet was able to get ahold of the state Vet who was out on Tuesday and she wanted one more sample prepared. So we FedEx'd several swabs and blood samples yesterday and they were expecting to start on them today. Some tests would be faster than others, with the PCR - a culture - to take the longest, that would be for MG. They're also doing an antibody test for the MG from the blood sample and the following tests- Avian Influenza, S. pullorum/typhoid, Mycoplasma synoviae, Newcastle, Infectious bronchitis, Infectious bursal disease and Bacteria isolation & id. So, in all 9 tests for 8 diseases, the MG PCR test being the most costly I think at $50, the other 8, $20. Add in shipping and the cost of the Vet visit and were at about $150 - more than the $130 I paid for 2 POL SFHs, 1 POL CL, and 3 months old pullets that are CL and Black Copper Marans (the 3 that are sick). BUT, if I can get some good information from this, maybe it won't cost me my whole flock. The Vet called at the end of the day but I was out with the birds and he didn't leave a message. He probably has word back on some of the quicker tests and hopefully I'll touch base with him in the morning.

Information that may be useful:
The Vet was kind enough to copy some things for me since the breeder questioned what the Vet told me about not being able to consume eggs or meat after giving antibiotics - she said she went to the FDAs site and didn't see anything on it. So, there is a website called www.farad.org which stands for Food Animal Residue Avoidance Databank. The vets themselves admit it is difficult to get answers there, but it is a congressionally mandated risk-managment program supported by the good ol' USDA. Then my new Vet was kind enough to print off a Vet-to-Vet board discussion (for Vet eyes only) on this very subject. The vet who started the conversation had attended a conference where 2 antibiotics were recommended for backyard laying hens but he couldn't remember for sure which 2, thus he posed the question to the board. The first response was from a vet in Greenville, SC who stated "If you're talking about active layers, if you are selling or giving away the eggs, zero antibiotics are approved by the Feds." So, presumably you could possibly eat them yourself after a withdrawal period?(yes) The conversation continued because the vet who started it was in fact asking about his parents hen and he knew they wouldn't be brushed off. Another vet told him to check FARAD for withdrawal times but from their own brief search could not find any antibiotics that could be used in layers as therapeutic drugs (outside of coccidiostats and medicated feeds) and stated "problem is residues can remain for a long time following treatment". The first vet to comment came back on to say "for commercial producers, FDA does random antibiotic sampling of retail eggs and meat and producers face huge fines if residues are detected". This is one reason, I think, that with the AI epidemic we are seeing huge commercial bird populations de-populated (and of course to stop the spread quickly instead of waiting for a drug to work). There was some more interesting discussion but I'll state the last post briefly and then I'm off to bed... This lady vet said that when she uses antibiotics in (backyard) laying hens she usually goes with oxytetracycline (poultry approved) or amoxicillin. She says the sulfas work nicely but they take much longer to exit the hens system. If using the amoxicillin she only uses it in the affected hen. And finally, if you are going to treat a flock that is used for selling eggs, you MUST be more careful and diligent in treating and could face serious legal issues.

That all being said, I'm still in a wait and see and may not use them. It may help the three sick birds but if they get better and make it to laying age, then my family would have to consume those eggs and I don't want my family consuming eggs with residues either. Geesh!

I'll keep y'all posted! Goodnight!

 

[dutchlion]

The only started birds I will ever get again are from personal friends who I know their practices... And even that will be far and few between after this.

We are fortunate to have a wonderful state tech who does our NPIP Testing. She has been " in chickens" a long time and thought not a vet tech knows a lot about chickens and their diseases.she looked at our little mottled java (patient zero) and gave her recommendation to take her to the vet for further testing (I'm calling as soon as they open); but she suspects MG or MS. I asked her if she knew anything about the abx withdrawal or not being able to use/sell the eggs at all afterwards. She said that the training they have received is abx withdrawal 2 weeks after abx no eggs or meat use. We have the java quarantined (separate part of the basement) and back on abx.
I am highly allergic to mold and mildew- I know we're talking chickens here... I have a point. When we left the breeders house I was congested and had a hard time breathing (he had a lot of birds and I'm not sure how clean everything was). Since we brought the chickens home, she has been in the sunroom which is hot and humid. Though showing the same symptoms as JulesChicks chicks, she is not getting better but not getting worse even with abx. I know nothing about Aspergilloses or mold infection... But wouldn't they manifest in the same way?
In the end, I'd rather this not cost me my flock. I am trying to remain objective and not get attached/sentimental..this for me that is hard. I believe they all should have a good start and not have to go through things like this. This guy is no better than a backyard breeder.
@JulesChicks I hope you're having a better day and please let me know how things are going!

 

[Leahs Mom]

I am highly allergic to mold and mildew- I know we're talking chickens here... I have a point. When we left the breeders house I was congested and had a hard time breathing (he had a lot of birds and I'm not sure how clean everything was). Since we brought the chickens home, she has been in the sunroom which is hot and humid. Though showing the same symptoms as JulesChicks chicks, she is not getting better but not getting worse even with abx. I know nothing about Aspergilloses or mold infection... But wouldn't they manifest in the same way?
In the end, I'd rather this not cost me my flock. I am trying to remain objective and not get attached/sentimental..this for me that is hard. I believe they all should have a good start and not have to go through things like this. This guy is no better than a backyard breeder.
@JulesChicks I hope you're having a better day and please let me know how things are going!

Here are a few links you can look at on fungal infections:


Quote:

Sometimes your flock may come down with ailments caused by fungal infections. Fungi aren’t plants or animals; they’re a unique, primitive category of life all their own. Mushrooms, molds, and yeast are fungi. Molds and yeasts can infect and sicken backyard chickens under the right circumstances.
Brooder pneumonia (Aspergillosis)

Aspergillus mold organisms grow in every chicken’s environment, flourishing in damp bedding and rotten coop wood. Healthy adult chickens aren’t particularly bothered by a little mold, but when the environment is teeming with mold spores, young chicks or stressed, rundown adult birds can be overwhelmed.
Aspergillus causes different forms of aspergillosis. The most common form of Aspergillus mold infection is brooder pneumonia, a lung and air-sac disease of chicks. Less-common forms of aspergillosis affect eyes, skin, brain, or bones. Chicks affected by brooder pneumonia gasp, lose their appetite, and look sleepy.
The disease doesn’t spread from chick to chick, but the mold can infect many chicks in a group at once, and up to half may die from the infection.
Unfortunately no effective drug treatment or vaccination is available for brooder pneumonia. Good nursing care and eliminating mold from the environment helps chicks survive. You can prevent outbreaks of brooder pneumonia with these suggestions:

• Start your chicks off right with a clean and disinfected brooder box or area. Check for rotten wood or moldy spots on the floor and walls of the building where you brood your chicks. Remove rotting wood or treat any moldy spots with a fungicidal disinfectant before moving chicks in.
• Use clean feed, hay, or straw. Make sure none of them have any mold, which can lead to brooder pneumonia.
• Clean chick feeders and waterers daily. Remove wet bedding promptly and replace it with fresh, dry stuff.

This page has a lot of information on things that have been used to treat. Oregano oil is mentioned in that section among other things.


DISCLAIMER: I see some of their possible treatments that I would not recommend. (For example, using ACV which is produced by a yeast-fermentation process. I would remove all ACV if there is a mold/yeast issue, especially in "sour crop" or gleet")
Quote:

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/poultry/aspergillosis/overview_of_aspergillosis_in_poultry.html