The Natural Chicken Keeping thread - OTs welcome!

[tjo804]

The only started birds I will ever get again are from personal friends who I know their practices... And even that will be far and few between after this.

We are fortunate to have a wonderful state tech who does our NPIP Testing. She has been " in chickens" a long time and thought not a vet tech knows a lot about chickens and their diseases.she looked at our little mottled java (patient zero) and gave her recommendation to take her to the vet for further testing (I'm calling as soon as they open); but she suspects MG or MS. I asked her if she knew anything about the abx withdrawal or not being able to use/sell the eggs at all afterwards. She said that the training they have received is abx withdrawal 2 weeks after abx no eggs or meat use. We have the java quarantined (separate part of the basement) and back on abx.
I am highly allergic to mold and mildew- I know we're talking chickens here... I have a point. When we left the breeders house I was congested and had a hard time breathing (he had a lot of birds and I'm not sure how clean everything was). Since we brought the chickens home, she has been in the sunroom which is hot and humid. Though showing the same symptoms as JulesChicks chicks, she is not getting better but not getting worse even with abx. I know nothing about Aspergilloses or mold infection... But wouldn't they manifest in the same way?
In the end, I'd rather this not cost me my flock. I am trying to remain objective and not get attached/sentimental..this for me that is hard. I believe they all should have a good start and not have to go through things like this. This guy is no better than a backyard breeder.
@JulesChicks I hope you're having a better day and please let me know how things are going!

I think the word you might be looking for is puppy mill.
A backyard breeder could be anyone, careful not to lump the good with the bad the next time you are looking for Chicks. I had a neighbor who wanted a German Shepard spent 200.00 for the pup. turns out she was raised on fleas and pinto beans and needed a blood transfusion to save her. Not everyone who raises German Shepard's does it this way.
I know this is hard for you and I hate that you are struggling with it but I am learning a lot and so are you

 

[JulesChicks]

So, it's as I feared. She tested positive for MG on both tests - so very conclusive. Since MG has an incubation period of 6-21 days and one of the girls arrived with a snotty nose and the 2 Marans succumbed within a week or two (and one of the Marans was the one tested), they almost assuredly came from the breeder with it. So, now I have it in my flock. I can cull all straightaway, never seeing eggs from my Marans and Ameraucanas or even the POL Cream Legbar or just the sick 3 or none of them and have extremely strict biosecurity and over time depopulate the flock before getting new birds. We can eat the eggs and the meat as we cull and we can even sell the eggs for eating, but we cannot breed of course.
So there it is. I sent the breeder a message with the results and requested she have her flock tested. I haven't heard back yet.

 

[tjo804]

So sorry Jules

I wouldnt get my hopes up about hearing for the breeder.

 

[Leahs Mom]

I wonder if you give the vet the source of the birds if there is anything they would do to keep this from going to other folks?

I just don't understand why people would knowingly send out birds from a sick flock. Unless they are "newbies" and don't realize there is sickness, I guess $$ is more important than integrity and protecting other folks.

 

[JulesChicks]

I think they didn't know, so maybe they didn't look them over closely? But you would think that other birds in their flock would be symptomatic. I really can't see how my sick birds would have contracted otherwise. They are selling birds all the time, but mostly just hatched chicks I think,so maybe they are in a different area and have not been exposed. There is the potential for a lot of exposure to other backyard flocks. And, the vet did not mention there was a law to report the breeder - some states have them but maybe ours doesn't?

So, what do you all think about what we should do moving forward? It will be mentally/emotionally very difficult to kill asymptomatic perfectly healthy birds - especially my sweet beautiful baby girls!

What I am also sick about is that my brother's family visited a week or two ago and may have stepped where the tractor was, which means they could have brought something back to their farm (and flock of 13!). I am just sick over this! I'm not sure how to tell my brother but I have to.

 

[lalaland]

ah jules, that is just awful. I am so sorry to hear that.

I don't know what to tell you, that is a very tough decision. DId the vet give you any info about whether the disease would stay around ? I don't know much , ok, I know basically nothing about how it is passed - mareks is a virus and lives in dander, the air, so once you have it, it is there and there is nothing you can do. even burning the coop won't eliminate it from your ground/area.

What about MG? if the chickens with it are gone, then....the next set of chickens is safe?

Would you be happy just working with your current flock until they all pass on? I have a 6 year old hen...so some can live a long time - again I am ignorant about MG .

keep us posted....it helps to be able to post about this and your thoughts on what you might do or not do.

 

[tjo804]

I have been doing some light reading and it looks like you may be able to get rid of it. If you choose not to cull the flock make sure your BIO SECURITY is tight. do not wear your chicken shoes to buy feed that kind of thing. You might also think about having any Birds you simply cant part with tested to see if they have been effected. I am so sorry you are going through this.

http://umaine.edu/livestock/poultry/mycoplasma-gallisepticum-faq/
How does MG spread? Transmission directly from bird to bird via respiratory secretions, or indirectly from contaminated dust, droplets or feathers, is common. Also, it can be spread vertically: from infected parent birds via the eggs. It can live for days to weeks depending on what kind of material is present: longer in chicken manure or eggs, shorter on clean, dry surfaces. Therefore, removing infected birds and cleaning well, followed by a “down” time for the chicken areas of at least a few weeks, is suggested. In a chicken house, water from unsanitary “drinkers” is the most important source of spreading the infection from bird to bird.

How do I disinfect if MG was in my flock? Freezing does not reliably kill MG outside of the host bird, but heat and drying do. Removing the infected flock, thorough cleaning and drying out of the house, and then disinfection with bleach or any of the commercially available products, such as phenolic compounds, should be effective. Leave the premises open (bird-free) for several weeks (hot, dry weather is optimal) before restocking with new birds.
Why should I bother to prevent MG? Because it can be an underlying cause of production losses, can combine with other diseases to kill birds, and can become chronically present in a flock due to “carriers,” it’s worthwhile to prevent MG.
How can I prevent MG in my flock?

1. Start with clean birds: The National Poultry Improvement Plan (NPIP) is one of the best resources to protect your poultry investment. Starting with MG-free birds, and keeping MG out of your flock with good biosecurity, is by far the best plan.
2. Good sanitation: Keep drinking water/drinkers and feeders clean. Outside runs should be on well drained soil and water puddles should be removed.
3. Simple is best: The more birds of different ages, breeds, and types are on the farm, the greater the risk of infection.
4. Keep it clean: Don’t let wild birds, or new birds of unknown (untested) background, bring MG into your flock. Net the top of coops to keep wild birds out; keep feeders contained and think carefully before you chose to do “free range” for your flock.
5. You may want to investigate MG vaccines, which can be given to young birds by spray or eyedrops, but which come in large-dose sizes (~1000 doses) and which may not be effective. These vaccines may not be allowed in Maine; check with the state department of agriculture.

I added info from the web site posted above I make no claim on the information. Just trying to share some helpful information.

 

[Leahs Mom]

I have read that if you remove the infected birds it can be eliminated - unlike Mareks.

But...
The idea of keeping my chickens "protected" from wild birds by penning them is just not going to happen here. I want my birds to have as natural a life as possible and if they have to be separated from the world, I might as well just go get my eggs and meat from confined feeding operations.


So... for me at least....
The strong healthy ones are the ones that have good immune systems and thrive in the environment. I've read that almost every flock has exposure to MG...that it is very common and hard not to find the virus present in most environments. If that's true, it tells me that some birds immune systems are strong and they never come down with symptoms. While others are weak and likely have issues that are broader than the virus itself.

When I got the 2 cockerels that looked healthy but kept having the mucous crusting on the nostrils, I had a really hard time deciding what to do. I finally ended up processing them since I hadn't seen any signs of any problems in my flock of any kind.

For me... I think that if the rest of my flock was in good condition, I'd probably end up removing the new ones and going from there. Since they're showing some extreme symptoms it would tell me that there is some kind of inherent weakness and I'd probably be nursing them their entire lives.

It's very hard to make that decision and I tend to wait much longer than I should have on these things. But with the extreme symptoms I think I would be quicker than I was with the boys.



Again...this is only my thinking. It took me almost 6 weeks before I processed the cockerels. But they weren't showing the symptoms you describe. If they had, it would have been much sooner.

 

[dutchlion]

@tjo804 you are correct. A puppy mill is a much more accurate description. Thank you.

@juleschicks I'm so truly sorry your dealing with this. We are having our java tested for MG/MS and fungal infection (we had her to the vet and a phone consultation with the state vet and lab yesterday) on Monday. In our state it is mandatory to report a farm that is MG/MS positive even if only 1 bird. There is a quarantine period of 45 days and we would be requested to cull birds showing symptoms to MG/MS. I would also be giving the breeders name to the state vet as point of origin.

On a more positive note, our flock is again NPIP certified. Our state however does not require testing for MG/MS during the NPIP.

 

[Lacy Blues]

The only started birds I will ever get again are from personal friends who I know their practices... And even that will be far and few between after this.

We are fortunate to have a wonderful state tech who does our NPIP Testing. She has been " in chickens" a long time and thought not a vet tech knows a lot about chickens and their diseases.she looked at our little mottled java (patient zero) and gave her recommendation to take her to the vet for further testing (I'm calling as soon as they open); but she suspects MG or MS. I asked her if she knew anything about the abx withdrawal or not being able to use/sell the eggs at all afterwards. She said that the training they have received is abx withdrawal 2 weeks after abx no eggs or meat use. We have the java quarantined (separate part of the basement) and back on abx.
I am highly allergic to mold and mildew- I know we're talking chickens here... I have a point. When we left the breeders house I was congested and had a hard time breathing (he had a lot of birds and I'm not sure how clean everything was). Since we brought the chickens home, she has been in the sunroom which is hot and humid. Though showing the same symptoms as JulesChicks chicks, she is not getting better but not getting worse even with abx. I know nothing about Aspergilloses or mold infection... But wouldn't they manifest in the same way?
In the end, I'd rather this not cost me my flock. I am trying to remain objective and not get attached/sentimental..this for me that is hard. I believe they all should have a good start and not have to go through things like this. This guy is no better than a backyard breeder.
@JulesChicks I hope you're having a better day and please let me know how things are going!

dutchlion, here's some information you might find interesting. Your mention of mold reminded me.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...istaken-for-crd-mycoplasmosis/60#post_9491676

Jules Chicks, here's one for you.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/587948/rebuilding-my-farm/270#post_15120657