The Rhodebar thread!

[jeremy]

Rhodebars, anybody interested in these birds? Does anybody have them?

Pictures via poultrykeeper.com

Via Melrose Poultry- Rhodebars are an autosexing breed that were first created in the 1930's. In an effort to produce a fowl that was capable of laying well, and with the added advantage of being sexable at hatching, a number of breeds had the barring gene "added" to them. Thus, there came about breeds such as Rhodebars (barred Rhode Island Reds), Wybars (barred Silver Laced Wyandottes), Welbars (barred Welsumers), Legbars (barred Leghorns) and the list goes on. They are considered to be a purebreed of poultry as they breed true - each generation looks like the former. Standards exist in the UK for many of the Autosexing breeds, where they are still reasonably popular. The autosexing breeds almost died out with the introduction of the commercial hybrids which became the industry standard for egg production.

Greenfire has imported them... they're selling them for dirt cheap on their website right now, too. $29 per male chick. http://greenfirefarms.com/store/category/chickens/rhodebar/

I really love my Heritage Reds, it seems easy enough to create your own Rhodebar line too by using them. What do y'all think?

Here's one of my Heritage Rhode Island Red pullets that may be the foundation of my Rhodebar breeding project.

 

[Chris09]

Jeremy,

Here is a breeding chart I found for a Legbar. Replace the Brown Leghorn Male with Rhode Island Red Male and see what happens.

Chris

 

[RedRidge]

I am somewhat disenchanted...
Going to vent...

I'm down to fewer than 20 original Rhodebars as I am working on my breed improvement project. I am the Queen of cull... with all my livestock. I believe most people do not cull deep enough. I pick my favorite and the rest get eaten unless someone else wants one.
I suspect when I finally get my first BC1 and F2 on the ground this fall I will be hesitant to part with many given that I suspect most people will not understand what they are. That isn't meant to sound snotty. I will sell any bird i have. I simply want them to go to people who appreciate them and understand them.

I am now the moderator for the Rhodebar fb page and realizing how others are disenchanted too is really a shame.

I have what I call 2 lines... Unimproved and improved. I should have chosen different names because I have learned that the name unimproved has certain negative implications associated with it. My unimproved Rhodebars are the result of very heavy culling for generations to assure 100% autosexing and 100% correct barring with the best type I could get (which isn't great). But they are 100% Rhodebars.
I have since discovered that that is more than can be said for most people selling Rhodebars over the last few years. Although if you are reading this I am likely preaching to the choir. People are getting hatches that are not all easily autosexed or the barring is incorrect - just to name 2 of the many problems being perpetuated. So while my "unimproved" Rhodebars do not have the type I want, they have been culled deep and are Rhodebars as opposed to "a gamble".
I have sold only a few trios and only to people who really took an interest in them. And I sold them cheap. It isn't about the money. But i will say this... There are folks selling for 4 times what I sell mine for and yet they really have no idea what their birds genetic makeup is. A high priced bird is not guaranteed genetics. No wonder folks are disenchanted with the breed.

So... I made up my mind last spring that I was no longer going to advertise Rhodebars. If someone wants some they will do research and know where to find some. And if they want quality they will research even deeper. In the meantime I have no problem eating what we produce here. Selling Rhodebars that are, in fact, Rhodebars is no longer a goal here. We are a self sustaining farm and raise cattle, sheep, rabbits, and poultry. Feeding our family is the first priority. The only requirement each breed of livestock has is that they may be "valuable enough" to earn their keep. Meaning... they must feed our family and earn enough to pay to keep them.
I love the Rhodebars. And I love my HRIR. But I make more money selling eggs than I ever will from selling breeding stock. I guess I have serious concerns over the direction the Rhodebars have been going here in the US and feel helpless to stop the bad snowball and overwhelmed at trying to help people understand why the solid yellow chick they just hatched that they paid a ton of money for is not really a Rhodebar. People want your help and advice until you tell them something they don't want to hear.
There are those who have an interest in the breed and I'm more than willing to share genetics with those who share the same passion. But for the most part I am not sure there is a place and a market for the type of Rhodebar I am attempting to produce. I have decided it doesn't matter, the project will continue regardless. But i have changed my goal from hoping to provide many poultry fanciers with excellent Rhodebars to simply a project for myself.
I just reread my post and yes it does sound discouraging and snotty. It also sounds like I am more knowledgeable than what I am. I am not. I am simply a breeder who wishes to continue to learn more and more about genetics to further attempt to contribute to a wonderful breed. I applaud those of you who are trying to do the same.
Thanks for the vent.

On a more positive note... The F1s I have are reddening up... I anticipate eggs any time.

 

[melroseladi]

I think what everybody needs to keep in mind is unless they are purchasing stock from an IMPROVED line then they can/should expect to be getting problems that run the gamut from color, type, egg color, and cross bred birds. As I have said in the past most if not all Rhodebar in the states came from foundation stock from GFF and while they did seem to have 1 pen of "decent" RB the rest of the stock seems to have been mixed and definitely poorly bred.

I know that people have different goals when they decide to have a RB flock, but I have to agree with Sheri as far as passing on not only inferior birds but birds that do not really even qualify as true RB is just wrong. Now I have no problem with people selling eggs or chicks with full disclosure.

RB should be 100% auto-sexable at hatch by anybody looking at them, imo. You should not have to have a comparison chart or a genetics degree to sex them at hatch. If there is any question about them (chipmunk stripe/head spot) they should be culled and not bred and NOT sold to people as RB.

Just my opinion

Penny

 

[RedRidge]

No post is ever bugging. We are still very much learning and bouncing ideas and pictures off each other is how we learn.
I personally tend to be a little blunt sometimes with my opinion because I figure people wouldn't ask of they didn't want a straight answer and because I like it when folks shoot straight with me. That said, I suspect I can come across as abrasive in writing sometimes and that is not the intent.

I will say that I am becoming more and more frustrated with the problems people are having receiving eggs and chicks in this breed. While we can pick apart type and color all day long and realize the need for improvement, that does not negate the fact that this is an autosexed breed. When people receive chicks or hatching eggs that are not ALL auto sexable, it is an assault on the breed and imo it is dishonesty. No Rhodebar breeder should be selling anything that isn't autosexable - PERIOD! I believe it is the breeders responsibility to accurately represent the breed and if they are not verifying their autosexing ability through breeding they shouldn't be selling eggs. Autosexing should not be a crap shot where "some" of the chicks are autosexed... The entire hatch should be. IF they aren't and IF someone wants to perpetuate them as RB, then only the easily autosexed should be bred and only proven stock should be used to produce eggs.
Now IF someone is wanting birds for eggs or looks and didn't care about perpetuating or improving the breed, that's fine. We all need egg layers. But those birds should not be called Rhodebars, they should be called backyard layers.

I feel for those people who are receiving eggs that are not autosexable when they thought they were receiving RB. It is giving the breed and the breeders a bad name. And instead of pursuing the breed, these folks are becoming disenchanted and leaving the breed. And at the other extreme, breeders who are selling these misleading genetics (whether intentionally or out of ignorance), are perpetuating problems. And in many cases making a lot of money selling what are really back yard birds.

Here's my concern: The few very serious breeders out there who are developing really nice stock are going to become disenchanted with the breed because they cannot compete with the high priced, misrepresented stock that are being over produced and flooding the market. Over the next few years many people will give up the breed as they realize their stock is not autosexable. And worse, more people will jump on the band wagon with unproven stock.

Only a very small fraction of RB breeders are on byc. But all the other RB groups are having all the same growing pains. And many are very openly critical of RB breeders because they are selling something that is a misrepresentation of the breed. MANY folks have been publicly critical of this problem, but just add many keep breeding and selling eggs from two birds they really know nothing about.

Basically we all have or own goals. And those goals are never wrong - as long as they are represented accurately and honestly.
Guess I better get off my Sunday morning soap box now. ;-)

 

[RedRidge]

 

black feathers on Tail means he is only Heterozygous for the barring gene, pure Rhodebar males have two copies of the gene, its a sex linked gene, meaning females can only have one copy

Thank you.  He's actually a Pioneer, not a Rhodebar, but considering the color similarities I figured this might be the best place to get an answer regarding the genetics.  Unfortunately I am without Rhodebars at this time, had some major predator problems and all of them were slowly picked off one at a time.  Every time I thought I had it fixed, I'd lose a few more. :-(  I have some very bold coyotes in my area, one was actually chasing the chickens who were out free ranging, I went running out there yelling at him and he didn't stop chasing my rooster until he was about 10 feet away from me, and the rooster was right next to me.  Then he just casually trotted away, even stopping to watch me less than 10 feet from a fence where my dogs were going NUTS barking at him (the barking was what alerted me to the issue).  What few chickens I have left have lost all free ranging privileges, not sure if they will ever get them back :-(  I had a larger area, around 1/3 acre,  for them to free range in, fenced with both welded wire and hot wire around that, but they keep flying over the fence to wander to other areas and getting killed so ...

I couldn't have hundreds of head of livestock out here in the middle of nowhere with our heavy predation without all of my Italian Maremma. Awesome lgds - I could not run this place without them. We are lambing right now and the coyote know it. But no worries here since the maremma guard both poultry and sheep.

 

[jeremy]

Something like this would be the color I would be shooting for if I were to start breeding these birds.

These are bantam Rhodebars, pictures via http://www.britannicrarebreeds.co.uk/breedinfo/chicken_rhodebar.php

 

[melroseladi]

??? What do you mean? I figure I will wait till they feather out then start separating for cull. But is there something else I should be looking for in their beak style??

Yes as RedRidge was saying RB should look like barred Rhode Island Reds. The horn color of the beak comes from RIR. That trait has been lost greatly due to hatchery crosses and breeding of Reds making them no longer to the RIR standard. Heritage Rhode Island Reds are (should be) bred to the standard which includes the horn coloring on the beak. You will not find that on most of GFF RB so to have it on your chicks is a good thing, plus those chicks have nice dark color. I would definitely keep my eye on those chicks to use as future breeders.

Edited to add: IMO your first culling/marking should be with the down color, take lots of notes and pics of each chick. You want to really focus on breeding those birds that are good from hatch and not just how they look as they feather out. Down marking and coloring is very important. Select those that are easiest to auto-sex, cull (mark and don't breed) yellow chicks, etc

Penny

 

[nicalandia]

The Poultry Club of Great Britain


Breed Standard
for the
Rhodebar


GENERAL CHARACTERISTICS :
MALE:
Carriage: Upright and graceful.

Type: Body large, fairly deep, broad and long. Back broad, long and somewhat horizontal in outline. Breast broad, full and well rounded. Wings carried well up, the bows and tips covered by breast feathers and saddle hackle. Tail rather small, rising slightly from the saddle, the sickle of medium length, well spread and nicely curved, the coverts being sufficiently
abundant to cover the stiff feathers.
Head
: Strong, but not thick. Beak moderately curved, short and stout. Eyes large and bright. Comb single, medium size, straight, upright, well set on, with well-defined serrations, and free from side sprigs. Face smooth. Ear-lobes of fine texture, well developed and pendant. Wattles to correspond with size of comb and moderately rounded.
Neck
: Of medium length and profusely covered with feathers flowing over the shoulders, but not too loosely carried.


Legs and feet: Legs wide apart and of medium length, stout and strong and free from feathers. Thighs large with well rounded shanks of medium length. Toes four, strong, straight and well spread.

Plumage: Of silky texture, free from coarse or excessive feather.

Handling : Firm with abundance of muscle.

FEMALE
The general characteristics are similar to those of the male, allowing for the natural sexual differences.

COLOUR
Plumage, Male: Hackle deep red-gold barred, with centres black and grey-white barred, the black centre portions rather longer than the grey-white; the front of the cape showing less black, the feathers towards the tips of the cape lying on the back showing wider black and grey-white barring. Wing primaries, lower web red-gold, faintly barred, upper grey and white barred, slightly gold tinted; secondaries, the whole alternately black, white and gold barred, lower web showing more gold; flight coverts very bright red-gold and white barred, tips red-gold. Wing bows very brilliant chestnut red and gold barred. Tail, including sickles, uniform black and white barring from tip to base, including the shaft. Tips black. Saddle hackle deed red-gold and grey-white and narrower black barring towards the tips. Back and saddle deep red-gold barred, with occasional black bars towards the end of the feathers. Undercolour light creamy buff. Breast uniformly barred, deep red-gold and creamy white and black.

Plumage, Female : Hackle deep buff red with bright chestnut edges, each feather with deep buff, gold, black and white narrow barring, the barring becoming narrower as it approaches the lower cape feathers. Tail feathers black with reddish tinge. Wing primaries, upper web red-buff, lower black; secondaries buff-red. Remainder, general surface dark buff-red barred with buff and buff-red, the tips of the feathers of the lighter colour. Undercolour creamy buff-red, as deep as possible. Quills yellow.
In both sexes
: Beak red-horn or yellow. Eyes orange or red, pupils clearly defined. Comb, face, ear lobes and wattles bright red. Legs and feet bright yellow.


Standard Weights :
Cock: 8½lb (minimum); Cockerel 8lb .
Hen: 6½lb (minimum); Pullet 5½lb

SCALE OF POINTS
Type 30
Colour 20
Legs 10
Condition 15
Head 20
Weight 5
100 Points

Serious Defects : Male's comb twisted or falling over. Ear-lobes other than red. Legs other than yellow, orange or light willow. Squirrel or wry tail. Side sprigs on the comb. Eye pupils other than round and clearly defined. Crooked breast or any bodily deformity


source http://www.harislau.info/rhodebar

 

[RedRidge]

The 2nd and 7th pic appear to have better structure and type... deeper chests, better tail set. That doesn't mean the others don't, that is just my opinion from what little I can tell from a picture and is really just a guess.
The bird in the last pic I don't care for at all.
Here's the big thing I've been looking for when evaluating F1s. (After culling for any obvious bad things.) Best brick shape from side view, best width across the back that carries through from shoulder to tail without narrowing. After that I look at tail set, leg and beak color (yellow with bone).
This is all assuming color and barring is correct (which it will be with yours since I know your RIR are correct). For F1s most of the coloring patterns are pretty identical... even between those who looked so different at hatch. That's why it is so important to identify and breed the best wildtype ones only.
My F1s are all laying heavy now (eggs in the bators) but I am only breeding 8 pullets. All the remaining F1s are in my layer pen and will forever be classified as backyard mutts and never be bred. They sure lay like crazy though. ;-)