To worm or not to worm that is the question.

[Jesusfreak101]

I have a flock of 21 hens ranging from 10 months now to three months. I keep reading where you deworm them twice a year. With from what i read is with a goat worm and you can not eat the eggs and they go to waste for a certian amount of time. I am not looking into saling the eggs so i could save eggs for the amount of time we have to worm the as we eat eggs every day. I bake and cook constantly so eggs are needed. At what age do you worm and what medication and how long is the withdrawl period? Whats the dosage i have different weight hens. Leghorns (light breed), delewares, golden sex links, rhode island reds, barred rocks, easter eggers, buff op, sl wyandottes. Some allow us to pick them up and others like one or more rhode islands will try to attack you (well my husband, me they ok with mostly). Right now i am giving them pumpkin and other preventives (will start cayenne pepper in feed soon) but what else can i do.

 

[ChocolateMouse]

Just popping in to toss my $0.02 in. I've been keeping a flock under the same conditions for nearly 5 years now. Not as long as some folks, but it matters still I think that my birds have lived this way for that long. Also, I'm feeling a little aggressive today, so my apologies if this seems harsh.

I have never used a medical dewormer. I don't have parasite loads or problems. I have chickens in a small coop and pen in suburbia (about 750sqft with 10-14 LF chickens at any given time, meaning each bird has about an 8'x8' area). You do not need to worm constantly, even in suburbia. If you need to worm constantly, there's probably something seriously wrong with your management. That could be that you have too many birds for your area (Which DOES mean if your area is too small, you could have too many birds with just 2-3 bantams. There's a real possibility that owning chickens is not appropriate for your situation, like sticking a st bernard in a one bedroom apartment. There's a point where it's not enough space to keep healthy birds.), or you do not cull weak birds, or you do not use soil management or you need something more work intensive (like regular cleanings) or something. So here's how I manage parasites and I think that most of this is already in the thread but I just wanna say I agree with it.

1. Soil management. I lay down fresh woodchips in my chicken pen 1' deep every year or two. The fresh woodchips last longer and break down slower. The chickens dig in the woodchips, mixing them with their own fecal matter and they compost down into harmless dirt. There's 5 years of chicken poop in my chicken pen and you would never, ever, know it. I never take anything out or clean it, I just add more in. This creates a really violent environment for pathogens and parasites and they just can't survive in it. Everything has a natural predator, even tapeworms, and the deep litter is a motherload of things that feed on things that are bad for my birds. Deep litter is great.

2. Culling. I never really get around to culling my own birds. The local hawks do too good of a job of it for me. But I agree strongly with culling. A sick bird is a huge risk, kind of like how if you catch the flu it puts you at a greater risk for pneumonia. Yes, some of these birds are beloved pets but those pets have wide-reaching consequences. A simple example, in 2003 an Exotic Newcastle outbreak that resulted in 3 million chickens destroyed started in backyard poultry flocks in California and spread to four states. I'm not saying that your birds are carrying a nationally-threatening virus, but if you think that the worms you chickens carry won't be able to spread to the chickens 5 blocks away, or that little runny nose doesn't mean something bigger could be going on internally, you're wrong. And your negligence could effect more than just your own flock. Bird-borne pathogens and parasites spread fast, kill effectively, jump species easily, are hard to control and threaten our national food supply. Even dogs get put down if they carry a dangerous contagion. Responsible euthanasia is part of responsible chicken keeping. If you own chickens, you need to own that, as difficult as that is.

3. Diet management. If you feed a low quality diet, your birds will have low quality health and be more prone to all sorts of diseases and parasites. This can also be done effectively in small spaces. Fodder, fermented feed, probiotics, vegetable scraps, worm bins and other methods can be used in small confinement spaces to encourage a healthy, natural, diet. I put extra effort into deworming in the fall, not on purpose but by coincidence. Early November, right as my birds are going into molt, I try to do my errands on trash days. Anytime I can, I stop and pick up old jack o lanterns and pumpkins and other squashes from peoples tree lawns. Sometimes they have seeds, sometimes not, and I get my fall squash coming in so they get those seeds too when I eat those. Sometimes they're a little moldy, but I don't worry too much about that. This is the closest thing to a natural dewormer I use. It's a fall bounty that dang near any suburbanite can get their hands on for free and it's great. Sometimes if I feel like my flock has had a rough time I might soup this up with cayenne or garlic in their feed to try to give them a little extra boost.

4. Other environmental management. Making sure your birds are healthy stops parasites from taking over. Obviously, they're there the whole time but healthy birds don't worry about it. So in addition to diet and culling and deep litter, I also make sure all the other little details are in place. A bird with external parasites will be likely to have an outbreak of internal parasites. A bird that's having trouble with eating won't have a strong immune system. A bird with no exercise or poor mental stimulation will be less robust. So I try to make sure my birds have what they need, even in a small space. A dust bath filled with sand, DE and wood ashes gives a natural source of grit and minerals and external parasite removal. A cinder block gives birds somewhere to wear down their beak. Swings and branches and boxes and perches and tunnels give the birds things to stimulate mind and body (and conveniently so too does the deep litter).

An interesting note about this. Something that really improves the health of animals in captivity is mental health. Zoos found this out and they found that one of the biggest contributing factors to mental health was not how much space the animals had but rather if they could see the entirety of their enclosure. So they started adding alcoves and passages and visual blocks to their envrionments and it really improved the animal's physical and mental wellbeing. Animals in thoughtfully designed enclosures got sick less often than ones in more open enclosures. I guess seeing your whole entire world at once is pretty depressing.

And that's it. That's all I do. And it works, even in small suburban spaces. I never see worms, and I don't worm my chickens. They don't even really get the free range like some birds on here. And it's not scientific evidence, but... You're on a chicken forum not a scientific journal. And this is what works for me.

 

[shortgrass]

Olddoglikehens, donrea, shortgrass yall are the first on here to tell me you dont worm. I fall more in line with yall simply because i believe God designed them to beable to take care of certian things. In the wild they had to deworm naturally so i agree with yall i just kept reading deworm deworm. I have a friend who hasnt dewormed ever she had her flock three years. So thereis that. And ct i get where your coming from if you see an issue to treat it. But if there no issue why do so many treat regularly? Thats what has me confused. For us we would lose a lot of eggs which in my book is just wasteful. I am not sure i am ok with that part.

Well, in my book, that's the start of it. God takes care of them, the chickens. And He takes care if th worms. They have a place in life too, and they actually have a role to play, so eradicating them, plus whatever else might be eradicated in the process is not trusting God


Ok now that that's said lol


I also have education to back my thought process up.. My folks raised me on the ranch with cattle and kind of forced me to go to college for it My dad was my Agronomy professor, lol, so I've had a good 30 years of soil drilled into my head. The soil is the beginning of life, so killing it is doing a great disservice to the ecosystem.

We depend on the dung beetles to keep poo in the pastures cleaned up. When we worm, we inherently kill the dung beetles that we need to feed on the poo in the pasture. The chemicals destroy precious microbes in the chickens gut, that they need to be able to fight off pathogens, so worming has an effect on their very RNA structure. It does irreversible cell damage and will mutate DNA in subsequent generations.

Who knows what effect these chemicals will have on the soil, the plants, the birds, and ultimately US.

Too many unanswered questions there


Nature, God, however... Has put plants, microbes, bacteria, minerals.... All these little tiny worlds to take care of His bigger worlds He makes plants like Wormwood, Dill, Garlic, curcubits(pumkins, etc) that already help curb infestation already, and He gave the birds a brain and instincts to know to eat these things when they're in season to medicate themselves

Also, I am positive that there are worms out there, they HAVE to be. But an INFESTATION means that I messed up somewhere and does not, to me, mean to bring out big guns and kill everything in sight, but to look around me and see where one of those ecosystems got out of balance, and fix it ASAP.

I don't worry about worms because I can't! Lol I take care of the worms too, so they don't make trouble for me lol


Edit to add* oh yeah, and my dad would never leave me alone if I wasted all that money on wormers lol; I'm not cheap but I don't have that kind of money to waste

 

[oldhenlikesdogs]

Kept chickens for twenty years, never wormed a single chicken.

 

[cafarmgirl]

Outside of killing the good bacteria and other things that help chickens survive the problem i had with the ideal of worming is your using something thats for another animal to do this and yet it really hasnt be aproved in chickens. So as much as one can estimate when it would be ok to eat said chicken or eggs can you really be sure. I know some medication stay in our system for a month and the amount is small but the damage still can be done in away if its the same with chickens. If i can refrain from worming i am going to i prefer not using chemicals if its not needed or required to keep a healthy flock.

Dewormers are not antibiotic's, they do not kill any bacteria, good or bad, they kill parasitic worms. As far as using something labeled for another animal? I do not know of any species specific dewormer. Many wormers are used for many different animals, including humans unlucky enough to pick up some parasite, the active ingredient is the same. The few that are labeled for chickens are woefully inadequate, they only treat roundworms and there are many parasites chickens can get other then roundworms. That is why most people use other wormers "off label". Also, not all parasites will show up in the droppings, not as the worm itself or the eggs. So a clear fecal sample does not mean the birds don't have worms. As far as letting nature take it's course? Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world of green pastures and rainbows, nature is often incredibly cruel and wild creatures often live a very short life and die a hard death compared to our pampered pets.

Yes, chickens and any animal can handle a certain amount of parasites. But how do you know when the numbers are out of control? Do you wait until the birds start showing poor condition, loosing weight, having diarrhea etc? Often times when they've gotten to that point it's hard to bring them back, parasites do a lot of internal damage.

As far as DE as a wormer? Tried that years ago when it was all the rage, chickens got worms. So I deworm my birds a couple times a year, parasite loads are kept under control very easily. But it all boils down to a personal choice, what you want for you and your birds. Research poultry parasites thoroughly, don't rely simply on what you read on a forum, we all have our own opinions. But do your own research and base your choice on that.

 

[appps]

Generally during spring and autumn they go through a little phase where they are really not laying as much. They are all moulting or broody time of year. That's when I aim to worm so I'm not really loosing much in the egg department.

I have a lot of wild birds that sneak into our pen despite my efforts to keep them out and mine love to raid the compost heap for worms when out wandering. Both are good ways to catch worms. I have children who touch the hens so I like to know they aren't going to be transferred to them if they do have them. I was told to alternate treatments using a different one each of the twice a year.

I have read lots and lots of posts on natural methods for treating them with seeds and de. Have yet to read one where somebody actually had success curing an outbreak with them, lots of I prevent them, no I've got them, that got rid of them, which makes me wonder if nothing would have worked just as well........ . so I stick to stuff comes out of a bottle

 

[Teila]

Hey there all

I have read all the posts and made some notes as I went along. I am one of those people who worm the gals every 6 months, making note of when next due.

My reason being that there are already too many ways I can lose one of my beloved featheries and hopefully worming them regularly takes away at least one of the possibilities.

I agree totally with ChicKat in that Beekissed is a brilliant chicken keeper and a star on BYC but disagree with the suggestion “they probably shouldn’t be keeping chickens at all”. I have 6 bantams who are much loved pets and I really do not care whether they lay eggs or not and what effect they have on the budget. I totally agree that it depends on what your goals for keeping chickens are.

Again, these are just some notes I made while reading others comments and just my personal opinion:

* I have read that if you can actually see worms in the poop you are at the stage where they have a ‘burden’ and at higher risk of stress from the effect that worming a ‘burden’ has on them.

* There are wormers available that do not require a withholding period on eggs.

* ACV [with mother] apparently maintains a good pH balance in their digestive system and makes it a little uncomfortable for worms to live in. So while not an actual wormer, it can be a deterrent.

In the end, I truly believe it comes down to personal preference and personally, I would rather be safe than sorry.

 

[Mrs. K]

@ Birdbeliever
"Don't mean to open another can of worms here...(pun intended! ) but for those of you who don't worm. Do you medicate at all? Like what about if one of your chickens gets coccidiosis? I just bought Sulmet today because of my chickens "may" be showing signs of this and I just want to have it on hand because this seems to be one of the most prevalent chicken ailments even under the best care and conditions."

Anything that is sick is culled as soon as possible and disposed. I don't medicate any of my birds or separate them from the flock. I keep a healthy flock. I don't have pets, I practice animal husbandry in which the whole flock is more important than one bird. Sickly, unthrifty birds are very prone to parasites, I don't want them as a reservoir of disease in my flock.

I do know that many do medicate, often by guess and by golly, and that can be dangerous to the health of the flock. It is up to each's individual choice. However, often times, with the best of intentions, the flock is put at risk.

Mrs K

 

[Ridgerunner]

There are different strains of the bug that causes Cocci. Different strains attack different parts of their digestive system. This has two effects. Some strains are more dangerous than others. Also, not all strains cause bleeding. They can have a serious cocci problem with no bleeding.

While red poop is a big red flag that you need to check them out, not all red poop means blood. It could be shed intestinal lining, it could be something they ate. Feed you chickens cooked beet skins and expect to see red poop the next day. Red cabbage can turn their poop blue.

After being exposed to one strain of cocci for two to three weeks the chickens develop an immunity to that strain. That does not mean they are now immune to all strains, just the strain they were exposed to. As long as the numbers in their guts do not get out of control, you’ll never know they have it. After three weeks of continuous exposure you don’t have to worry about it. They are immune to that strain. That does not mean you can them let everything stay wet and muddy. That’s still unhealthy.

I feed my brooder raised chicks some dirt from the adult run on day 2 or 3 in the brooder to get them started on developing immunity. Since I keep my brooder very dry that interrupts the life cycle of the bug that causes cocci so I give them more dirt every three or four days so they have continuous exposure. I’ve never seen a brooder raised chick with any signs of cocci.

I had a couple of broody raised chicks get cocci once. The weather set in really wet and the run stayed wet and muddy. The cocci bug thrives in wet poopy mud and evidently they ate enough that the numbers got out of hand. They were locked in the run because I had a fox problem that took a while to take care of. I haven’t had any cocci problems since I got the electric netting. The broody hens can now take them out of the mud and onto grass.

Bridebeliever, just because your chickens did not come down with cocci that time does not prove you do not have cocci in your flock. They can easily have immunity to any strain in your ground. The risks are usually new chicks too young to have immunity, new birds coming in, or a new strain of cocci gets introduced.

 

[shortgrass]

Then doesn't it make sense to have a proper necropsy done to find out what the underlying problem is? Wouldn't one want to know? Many talk about culling the weak, or just letting them die, but no one seems interested in finding out what the cause of the illness was. Maybe I'm in the minority for wanting to know?

No you're not in the minority. I thought we were talking about worming, not the facts of life. Things die. Birds die, cows die, we die.


Most folks here are hobby chicken keepers, not vets in training. Some will lose one bird and not bat an eyelash, where someone else may spend hundreds of dollars in fecals and wormers and necropsies. For a chicken.


No, it does not make sense to have a necropsy done for every single dead thing on the farm. If there's an outbreak, more than one bird is going to show signs of it, and if only one bird dies, its kinda obvious that that specific bird had weakened immunity.

The first place I would actually look is not in a dead carcass, but the soil.

Oh, but this is just if we are in fact still talking about worms.