To worm or not to worm that is the question.

[Bridebeliever]

I love all of the wonderful discussion on here! Respectfully hearing each other out...

Things have worms and parasites. People tend to freak out if you tell them they have a healthy load of parasites living in them! But here's the hard fact...if a human died and got sealed in a plastic box...above ground...worms and bugs would start to break down the body...because they are THERE! I have de-bugged myself before and seen all kinds of interesting things come out. I do it if I start having a sluggish system, if I'm having frequent break outs and if I start experiencing nausea frequently. I've de-bugged myself twice in my 46 year life. Fortunately no one thought EGADS, look at the parasites she has, we must cull her! LOL
I have ever seen-wormed a cat and a dog when I've seen worms, I have also not done anything to see if the animals body will "take care of it". I did it with my dog this last summer. I saw tape worms in his stool for a couple weeks, left it alone and within a couple more weeks they were gone. If I started to see more or it didn't resolve I would've wormed him. I think this is a pretty reasonable approach. It works for me! I'm not anti meds...I just had pneumonia two weeks ago and promptly got on antibiotics...and now I'm on probiotics to restore gut flora.

 

[lazy gardener]

Just popping in to toss my $0.02 in. I've been keeping a flock under the same conditions for nearly 5 years now. Not as long as some folks, but it matters still I think that my birds have lived this way for that long. Also, I'm feeling a little aggressive today, so my apologies if this seems harsh.

I have never used a medical dewormer. I don't have parasite loads or problems. I have chickens in a small coop and pen in suburbia (about 750sqft with 10-14 LF chickens at any given time, meaning each bird has about an 8'x8' area). You do not need to worm constantly, even in suburbia. If you need to worm constantly, there's probably something seriously wrong with your management. That could be that you have too many birds for your area (Which DOES mean if your area is too small, you could have too many birds with just 2-3 bantams. There's a real possibility that owning chickens is not appropriate for your situation, like sticking a st bernard in a one bedroom apartment. There's a point where it's not enough space to keep healthy birds.), or you do not cull weak birds, or you do not use soil management or you need something more work intensive (like regular cleanings) or something. So here's how I manage parasites and I think that most of this is already in the thread but I just wanna say I agree with it.

1. Soil management. I lay down fresh woodchips in my chicken pen 1' deep every year or two. The fresh woodchips last longer and break down slower. The chickens dig in the woodchips, mixing them with their own fecal matter and they compost down into harmless dirt. There's 5 years of chicken poop in my chicken pen and you would never, ever, know it. I never take anything out or clean it, I just add more in. This creates a really violent environment for pathogens and parasites and they just can't survive in it. Everything has a natural predator, even tapeworms, and the deep litter is a motherload of things that feed on things that are bad for my birds. Deep litter is great.

2. Culling. I never really get around to culling my own birds. The local hawks do too good of a job of it for me. But I agree strongly with culling. A sick bird is a huge risk, kind of like how if you catch the flu it puts you at a greater risk for pneumonia. Yes, some of these birds are beloved pets but those pets have wide-reaching consequences. A simple example, in 2003 an Exotic Newcastle outbreak that resulted in 3 million chickens destroyed started in backyard poultry flocks in California and spread to four states. I'm not saying that your birds are carrying a nationally-threatening virus, but if you think that the worms you chickens carry won't be able to spread to the chickens 5 blocks away, or that little runny nose doesn't mean something bigger could be going on internally, you're wrong. And your negligence could effect more than just your own flock. Bird-borne pathogens and parasites spread fast, kill effectively, jump species easily, are hard to control and threaten our national food supply. Even dogs get put down if they carry a dangerous contagion. Responsible euthanasia is part of responsible chicken keeping. If you own chickens, you need to own that, as difficult as that is.

3. Diet management. If you feed a low quality diet, your birds will have low quality health and be more prone to all sorts of diseases and parasites. This can also be done effectively in small spaces. Fodder, fermented feed, probiotics, vegetable scraps, worm bins and other methods can be used in small confinement spaces to encourage a healthy, natural, diet. I put extra effort into deworming in the fall, not on purpose but by coincidence. Early November, right as my birds are going into molt, I try to do my errands on trash days. Anytime I can, I stop and pick up old jack o lanterns and pumpkins and other squashes from peoples tree lawns. Sometimes they have seeds, sometimes not, and I get my fall squash coming in so they get those seeds too when I eat those. Sometimes they're a little moldy, but I don't worry too much about that. This is the closest thing to a natural dewormer I use. It's a fall bounty that dang near any suburbanite can get their hands on for free and it's great. Sometimes if I feel like my flock has had a rough time I might soup this up with cayenne or garlic in their feed to try to give them a little extra boost.

4. Other environmental management. Making sure your birds are healthy stops parasites from taking over. Obviously, they're there the whole time but healthy birds don't worry about it. So in addition to diet and culling and deep litter, I also make sure all the other little details are in place. A bird with external parasites will be likely to have an outbreak of internal parasites. A bird that's having trouble with eating won't have a strong immune system. A bird with no exercise or poor mental stimulation will be less robust. So I try to make sure my birds have what they need, even in a small space. A dust bath filled with sand, DE and wood ashes gives a natural source of grit and minerals and external parasite removal. A cinder block gives birds somewhere to wear down their beak. Swings and branches and boxes and perches and tunnels give the birds things to stimulate mind and body (and conveniently so too does the deep litter).

An interesting note about this. Something that really improves the health of animals in captivity is mental health. Zoos found this out and they found that one of the biggest contributing factors to mental health was not how much space the animals had but rather if they could see the entirety of their enclosure. So they started adding alcoves and passages and visual blocks to their envrionments and it really improved the animal's physical and mental wellbeing. Animals in thoughtfully designed enclosures got sick less often than ones in more open enclosures. I guess seeing your whole entire world at once is pretty depressing.

And that's it. That's all I do. And it works, even in small suburban spaces. I never see worms, and I don't worm my chickens. They don't even really get the free range like some birds on here. And it's not scientific evidence, but... You're on a chicken forum not a scientific journal. And this is what works for me.

This has to be one of the most thoughtfully written posts I've seen in a very long time.

 

[donrae]

Kept chickens for twenty years, never wormed a single chicken.

Me too. My birds are healthy, active, glossy feathers, good producers when appropriate. I figure if they're healthy, they balance their own parasite load.

 

[Jesusfreak101]

Olddoglikehens, donrea, shortgrass yall are the first on here to tell me you dont worm. I fall more in line with yall simply because i believe God designed them to beable to take care of certian things. In the wild they had to deworm naturally so i agree with yall i just kept reading deworm deworm. I have a friend who hasnt dewormed ever she had her flock three years. So thereis that. And ct i get where your coming from if you see an issue to treat it. But if there no issue why do so many treat regularly? Thats what has me confused. For us we would lose a lot of eggs which in my book is just wasteful. I am not sure i am ok with that part.

 

[Bridebeliever]

I'm SO glad this thread was started! I've been reading page after page of experienced chicken keepers say NO to worming! Hooray! I really wasn't wanting to worm my girls and I was really feeling like they don't need it!

I hate to get gross here but it's really a point worth mentioning.

If YOU died tomorrow, and you were put in a glass SEALED coffin above ground and left there for say....a week. Guess what would happen? Worms would start to decompose your body. Why? Well cause they are in you already silly! Living in YOU, in a relatively symbiotic relationship unless you eat really wrong and unhealthy and YOU get an overload of worms. Or you travel somewhere with unsanitary conditions, or you drink contaminated water. I've know people that have traveled to 3rd world countries and gotten amoeba or worms and they've had to get something from the doctor to eradicate them.

But, living in sanitary conditions, eating healthy food and everything clicks along just how it should! Now, some people cleanse themselves every 6 months or once a year because they just can't stand the thought that BUGS are in them and those are probably the same people that worm their chickens on a schedule, just because.

Man, I was going to do it...but now I'm not! Thanks gang!

 

[ChicKat]

This is kind of amazing, and may partly depend upon where you live, and definitely depends on what your goals for chicken keeping ARE.

If you have a dog and you live where there are heart-worms - you probably give your dog a once-a-month wormer. Heart worms in dogs are nasty and will shorten their life -- and therefore why take a chance when they can be prevented?.... even though years and years and years ago - people never gave their dogs heart worm meds.

If you live where there are hard freezes over winter you may be looking at something different from those of us who live in warm climates. -

When I was on a cattle ranch for a decade we used parasite medicine on the cattle. There is one that can even be used on milk cows with no milk withdrawal period.

Why, when modern science can prevent these parasites would you not prevent them? I use cydectin - and I see no ill effects in my chickens. cydectin can also rid the chickens of external parasites..... so -- why not give your animals protection?

Regarding if people living with small areas should abstain from having chickens, or if eggs from chickens that aren't organic (nothing artificial given to them to promote their health for example) are lesser quality than supermarket eggs so just get supermarket eggs....?? Beekissed, you are a brilliant chicken keeper and a star on BYC, but to suggest that people don't have a few hens in the back yard because of the difference it doesn't make in the grocery bill -- misses a lot of enjoyment, education, and other than just grocery-bill reasons for having chickens.

Not everything can be monetized, or should be for that matter IMO. In UK it is really very common to keep a few hens at the back of the 'garden' -- Not everyone who has chickens needs to have an egg selling business - (I'm sure I misunderstood what your said) Some in UK get ex battery hens just to have a few chickens around. Some like them for bug control or for just enjoying the chickens scratching around in the grass.

It should be everyone's best choice to care for their flock as they see fit -- and everyone is dealing with slightly different circumstances and has different goals..... everyone has their own approach to keeping chickens -- There are some types of livestock, in some climates that are done a pretty big disservice by failing to worm them (generic for parasite protection) -- this includes horses, goats, cattle, and chickens along with preventing heartworm in dogs in a climate like this one.

ETA -- just to clarify my point -- it is great that lots of posters in this thread feel no need to worm, or have no wish to worm. My perspective is I want the parasites away from my chickens -- and so I want a definite regular worming schedule for their well being.

 

[Teila]

Hey there Bridebeliever

I did not get the impression you were arguing.

The title of the thread is To Worm or Not to Worm and being a forum, I have found the reasons people do not worm interesting along with the reasons people do.

I totally respect people’s choice to not worm as I hope they do mine to worm.

As I said, in the end I truly believe it comes down to personal preference and while opinions have been given which may aid someone in making a decision either way, the choice is definitely a personal one.

 

[Beekissed]

One of the easiest and most effective preventative for parasites for any livestock is judicious culling. No amount of feeding anthelminics, healthy environment, nutritious feed, etc., can help prevent parasites as well as a yearly culling of the animals most likely to be carriers. Nonlayers, elderly, nonthrifty, poor feathering, loners, outcasts, etc. are those more likely to contract illness and parasites in any flock. A yearly culling of any and all birds that fit these criteria will also help eliminate those birds that would serve as a petri dish for microbial pathogens and as hosts to parasites, both internal and external.

Any time you look at a bird and feel like you should probably give her extra feed/supplements beyond her current balanced ration or think maybe you should give her medicine for this or that, that's a bird to cull. Don't wait and think she may change with time...maybe she will, but currently she's a fine host for parasites and vulnerable to disease. Why keep one individual around in hopes she'll get healthier and compromise the rest of the flock? Even isolating her is not a good solution...it causes stress to the bird and nurses along a bird that would probably die on her own without special attention or will sicken again the future, so culling is a better choice for the flock as a whole.

Keeping aging birds are fine if they are still laying reasonably well for their age....when they stop for months at a time it's likely time to remove them from the flock. There's always exceptions to the rule, but they are truly exceptions.

Hard words to many, I'm sure, but it's still the unvarnished truth. A flock is only as healthy as its weakest member. Take those out each year and you have a flock strong enough to withstand most things coming and going.

 

[Teila]

Can I just add to the above that Beekissed is talking about livestock and there are other options for anyone reading this with a small backyard flock who are much loved pets.

 

[Bridebeliever]

One of the easiest and most effective preventative for parasites for any livestock is judicious culling. No amount of feeding anthelminics, healthy environment, nutritious feed, etc., can help prevent parasites as well as a yearly culling of the animals most likely to be carriers. Nonlayers, elderly, nonthrifty, poor feathering, loners, outcasts, etc. are those more likely to contract illness and parasites in any flock. A yearly culling of any and all birds that fit these criteria will also help eliminate those birds that would serve as a petri dish for microbial pathogens and as hosts to parasites, both internal and external.

Any time you look at a bird and feel like you should probably give her extra feed/supplements beyond her current balanced ration or think maybe you should give her medicine for this or that, that's a bird to cull. Don't wait and think she may change with time...maybe she will, but currently she's a fine host for parasites and vulnerable to disease. Why keep one individual around in hopes she'll get healthier and compromise the rest of the flock? Even isolating her is not a good solution...it causes stress to the bird and nurses along a bird that would probably die on her own without special attention or will sicken again the future, so culling is a better choice for the flock as a whole.

Keeping aging birds are fine if they are still laying reasonably well for their age....when they stop for months at a time it's likely time to remove them from the flock. There's always exceptions to the rule, but they are truly exceptions.

Hard words to many, I'm sure, but it's still the unvarnished truth. A flock is only as healthy as its weakest member. Take those out each year and you have a flock strong enough to withstand most things coming and going.

Beekissed makes excellent points above.

This is another of my thoughts. I've been pondering it for weeks. So many people come on here and are like...my little chick is weak and not eating. What do I do? Nature...it has a way of weeding out the weak ones. A rooster is picking on ONE particular hen in the group, won't let her around, attacks her when she comes near the food. The rooster is a protector of the flock! He doesn't attack all your hens? Then HE knows something is wrong with her!! Listen to nature, it's usually very clear. I'm not saying it's easy but if you care about your flock as a whole you won't let weakness in. I don't believe saving a chicken at all cost. Okay, if it's egg bound, help her out...once...if it continues to happen she's got a problem with her reproductive tract, it may be time to cull. I sound tough, I haven't had to do it yet but I do feel this is excellent animal husbandry.

I once had a parakeet reject her two day old chick. I took that chick out fed it and returned it to the nest every two hours everyday for a week. Finally when it was stronger the mom keet started to take care of it again. The parakeet grew up...and it turned out to have a deformed foot. It also only lived for 2 years. Guess what? Mom keet knew this and was doing what nature told her to do...reject the weak one. Every spring mother birds throw what looks like perfectly healthy baby birds out of their nest. They know! And if we pay attention to our chickens we will know too.

Of course you can save your beloved pet chicken! I saved my cute little keet! I'm just saying that there are weak ones in flocks like Beekissed said, it's not always good to have that weakness there if it compromises the flock.