To worm or not to worm that is the question.

[aart]

Quote: Might only take a few to survive a treatment (especially 'too low' of a dosage) to start creating resistant worms.
Lots of variables to consider....but just one or two generations could do the trick.
Why folks in warmer places that feel/find the need to 'maintenance treat' use a different chemical every time they treat,
rotating 2 or 3 chemicals.

 

[casportpony]

Quote: I know it's a problem in goats, but just now while out grabbing firewood I was thinking that I don't think I've ever seen an article about Safeguard (fenbendazole) resistant roundworms. So I'm gonna take a guess and say it probably takes years.

 

[lazy gardener]

Olddoglikehens, donrea, shortgrass yall are the first on here to tell me you dont worm. I fall more in line with yall simply because i believe God designed them to beable to take care of certian things. In the wild they had to deworm naturally so i agree with yall i just kept reading deworm deworm. I have a friend who hasnt dewormed ever she had her flock three years. So thereis that. And ct i get where your coming from if you see an issue to treat it. But if there no issue why do so many treat regularly? Thats what has me confused. For us we would lose a lot of eggs which in my book is just wasteful. I am not sure i am ok with that part.

I'm in the do not worm camp. I think if I saw a bird that was dropping worms, I'd cull that particular bird rather than expose my entire flock to an antihelminthic that would likely breed resistance into the population.

Quote: I also inspect when ever I cull a bird. In my 4 years of culling, only once have I ever found a single sign of worms.

They ranged the whole 160 acres?????? Man, those are some kind of chickens!

Mine will only range about 3-4 acres distance from the coop.

Just because a person free ranges their birds doesn't mean their management practices are promoting healthy soils....they could be overstocking their range all the same and it winds up being much like a coop and run situation, even if they are out on range. Chickens don't instinctively know that the soils around their coop are highly over impacted with overstocking...they will just keep walking, eating and foraging right over that bad soil. Just because they have 160 acres, it doesn't mean they are using all of those acres....chickens usually won't range very far from their own coop. Another consideration is if the person is deworming with chemical wormers on a regular basis...which would just breed more resistant worms in their environment.

That bird was killed at 3 mo. for some reason...illness?

If soil is not properly managed, it will be impacted and sick around the coop, no matter how much free range the birds have. Good poultry management IMO includes keeping your soil covered so the beneficial organisms can outnumber and destroy the disease pathogens.

Every creature has a worm load of some kind, even us humans. Carrying an acceptable load of worms is the goal, not total elimination. At least, with those of us who favor natural living and life of the animal, it is. Parasite resistance is not the trait of not ever getting worms but the trait of carrying small loads of worms without it affecting health and production and that resistance is what most who favor natural animal care strive for.

No one stated that free range chickens don't carry worms....in fact, most people claim that free range birds are exposed to worm cycles more than those that are pen kept, though I have never seen evidence of that....seems like people with chickens in pens and coops tend to have more parasite problems than those keeping free ranged birds. I've killed hundreds of birds thus far from free ranged flocks and have yet to see the worm load you show in that picture...I've yet to see any worm load at all, except from one bird that arrived from a penned situation and was culled not long after her arrival. Could be your friend was breeding resistant worms rather than resistant birds.

The point that was being made was that free range birds have access to things in foraging efforts that could help them control their worm loads that pen kept birds would not have access to.

Agreed on all points. A recent study proved that mild parasite infestation actually improves immune response. Birds who have access to free range have many opportunities to self medicate. However, if one has a flock that is picking around in a monoculture urban back yard situation, it's not likely that they would have the same advantage to self medicate.

Quote: If that friend was me, I'd be culling those birds with high worm loads, not treating the flock with medication that would increase resistance. I'm guessing the time frame to breed resistance is not very long if one looks at the time frame regarding bacterial resistance to antibiotics. The point is, how prudent is it to be continually be throwing medication at your flock, when the flock can be treated naturally, and in that process of natural treatment the birds will become increasingly resistant to the parasites, and the parasites will not build resistance? Start the flock on a path of a healthy immune system before the egg that will become next year's layer is even laid. Give the flock a healthy gut by providing plenty of opportunities to feed that gut with probiotics (healthy soil) and fermented feed. Give the flock plenty of opportunity to self medicate naturally. Give them the opportunity to meet dietary needs through free range opportunities (if that's not an option, give them a deep composting run, and supplement with lots of green vegetation and/or sprouts) so they can meet ALL of their vitamin/mineral needs. This leads to healthy breeders, healthy eggs, healthy chicks. Breed forward for resistance by culling weak birds from the flock.

Quote: You're not likely to find such a study since most studies are subsidized by the manufacturers of the medications being studied. What you will find is plenty of us on this thread, who, have never had issues with parasites even when keeping flocks on the same land for decades. The reason those folks don't have issues is they practice good husbandry methods, including soil management, flock nutrition, allowing flock to self medicate, and culling weak individuals from the flock.

 

[casportpony]

Quote: Might only take a few to survive a treatment (especially 'too low' of a dosage) to start creating resistant worms.
Lots of variables to consider....but just one or two generations could do the trick.
Why folks in warmer places that feel/find the need to 'maintenance treat' use a different chemical every time they treat,
rotating 2 or 3 chemicals.
I think the real key is in doing the fecals and treating that worm with the proper amount of a medication for that type of worm. Sadly many people will just "google" the dose and will end up under medicating, because the majority of posts, websites, and poultry keeping books do not have correct information. For example, both the Chicken Chick's website and Gale Damerow's book have womring misinformation, and if people follow what's in either they will be under-medicating, or not medicating at all.

 

[casportpony]

Quote:
If that friend was me, I'd be culling those birds with high worm loads, not treating the flock with medication that would increase resistance. I'm guessing the time frame to breed resistance is not very long if one looks at the time frame regarding bacterial resistance to antibiotics. The point is, how prudent is it to be continually be throwing medication at your flock, when the flock can be treated naturally, and in that process of natural treatment the birds will become increasingly resistant to the parasites, and the parasites will not build resistance? Start the flock on a path of a healthy immune system before the egg that will become next year's layers is even laid. Give the flock a healthy gut by providing plenty of opportunities to feed that gut with probiotics (healthy soil) and fermented feed. Give the flock plenty of opportunity to self medicate naturally. Give them the opportunity to meet dietary needs through free range opportunities (if that's not an option, give them a deep composting run, and supplement with lots of green vegetation and/or sprouts) so they can meet ALL of their vitamin/mineral needs. This leads to healthy breeders, healthy eggs, healthy chicks. Breed forward for resistance by culling weak birds from the flock.
Fine if you're breeding chickens, but tell that to someone breeding peafowl that cost several hundred dollars, and what would you do if you were breed dogs or horses and the puppies and foals got worms? Would you cull them?

 

[Beekissed]

I know it's a problem in goats, but just now while out grabbing firewood I was thinking that I don't think I've ever seen an article about Safeguard (fenbendazole) resistant roundworms. So I'm gonna take a guess and say it probably takes years.

Considering the worms are reproducing pretty much all the time, I'd say it takes a much shorter time to breed a resistant strain than that. A single search yielded this one....

http://www.zimecterin.com/parasite/Pages/parasite.aspx

• Rotation can mask results of ineffective products2

• Before the advent of modern dewormers, rotation among products broadened control — today, broad-spectrum dewormers and a better understanding of resistance have changed the game

If we keep doing what we’re doing …

• Experts say the products we have will continue to lose efficacy12,13
• Parasite resistance will grow
• Soon, we may have nothing to fight small strongyles

What do independent equine parasitologists recommend?

Strategic deworming instead of a blanket one-size-fits-all approach.
The goals of strategic deworming.

• Keep worm burdens in any single horse below harmful levels
• Ensure that the vast majority of worms on the farm are susceptible to the dewormers
• Treat only as needed with products that work

The article just before this one states:

Quote:

le population in 95% of herds

were resistant to Panacur, in 53% of herds were resistant to Anthelcide
, and 40%
of herds were resistant to Strongid.
They also found indications that resistance to
Ivermectin is developing in some small strongyle populations
.

http://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/June-2011/Parasite-Resistance-On-The-Upswing/

Quote:

 

[casportpony]

Quote:

The article just before this one states:

Quote:
-A recent survey
in SE United States found that the small strongy

le population in 95% of herds
were resistant to Panacur, in 53% of herds were resistant to Anthelcide
, and 40%
of herds were resistant to Strongid.
They also found indications that resistance to
Ivermectin is developing in some small strongyle populations
.

http://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/June-2011/Parasite-Resistance-On-The-Upswing/

Quote: And I think this has taken *years*, and there is no mention of poultry parasites in those.

 

[Beekissed]

Fine if you're breeding chickens, but tell that to someone breeding peafowl that cost several hundred dollars, and what would you do if you were breed dogs or horses and the puppies and foals got worms? Would you cull them?

Uh....yes! Why would anyone keep breeding dogs or horses that cannot survive without medication all the time? Who in the world would even want to BUY such an animal?

 

[Beekissed]

You would euthanize puppies and foals if they had worms? Really?

Culling isn't always killing, you realize. Worms are one thing, many are born with a load....continuing to have worms and carrying high loads of worms when others in the herd or pack do not have them is a definite cull situation. Keeping them in the breeding pool is obviously not a good idea, so getting rid of them in whatever way is available is a wise decision.

 

[lazy gardener]

So would you medicate your peafowl, puppies, or foals?
Never had pea fowl. Grew up with horses, but have not had any in my adult life. So... I can't tell you what I'd do, but if any of my animals repeatedly were shedding roundworms, I'd be looking at my management practices. I can tell you that when I got my puppy, she did have roundworms. I treated her when I saw evidence of round worms. And then did a follow up treatment at a later date. However, I do not routinely treat her. If I saw evidence of roundworms at this point in her life, I'd use a natural antihelminthic before reaching for medication.

Suffice it to say, there are people on BYC who choose to medicate their chickens on a routine basis, whether they see round worms or not. There are people who freak out when they see a single round worm, and immediately grab a bottle or tube of medication. And there are people who choose not to de-worm their chickens. Among the latter, speaking only for myself, if I did have a bird in my flock that was shedding worms, I'd cull that bird while looking at my management practices, and would provide natural medication, of which there are many options to choose from for the rest of my flock. I feel confident that I am not going to convince you to change your management practices, and you can feel confident that you will not be able to convince me to change my management practices. If medication works for you, that's ok. And if natural methods work for me, then my flock, my land and my wallet reap the benefit.