Tolbunt Polish

[Rare Feathers Farm]

Quote:
Orloffs are spangled...or they should be...most nowadays are mottled. I have an Orloff rooster with too much white on him to use for my Spangled breeding but he might work for a Tolbunt project...I'm just not sure how much you'd have to fix with the combs/leg color, head shape, etc...

He's the one in the back....

 

[Vcomb]

Quote:
That we did not fully understand either. You're right if it were true mottled they should have been mottled in both generations. I must reiterate that the Tollbunt blood I had to work with was not properly colored, but at the time we did not know that. Not to veer too far off subject, but I am investigating a type of mottling/spangling that I have observed in Spangled Gamefowl that doesn't seem to follow the normal rules AND it gives a dispersion of white similar to what is found in some mottled Houdans, Tollbunts, and I believe, Exchequer Leghorns. To give an example, this year one pair of my spangled games, both birds heavily spangled produced 1 pullet with not a single white feather on her. This is the first time this had happened. In a cross between two bloodlines of games, one spangled and one that is not I have tried crossing back to the spangled side time and time again and each time the spangling disappears after the birds get to be a few months old. Now in the full blood spangles I have 1 hen who is from the same line, only removed by several decades. That hen has turned progressively whiter with age, while the side of that family I started with has not...the hens and original cock have just as much white now at 5 years old as they did at 2 years old.

 

[Illia]

Quote:
That we did not fully understand either. You're right if it were true mottled they should have been mottled in both generations. I must reiterate that the Tollbunt blood I had to work with was not properly colored, but at the time we did not know that. Not to veer too far off subject, but I am investigating a type of mottling/spangling that I have observed in Spangled Gamefowl that doesn't seem to follow the normal rules AND it gives a dispersion of white similar to what is found in some mottled Houdans, Tollbunts, and I believe, Exchequer Leghorns. To give an example, this year one pair of my spangled games, both birds heavily spangled produced 1 pullet with not a single white feather on her. This is the first time this had happened. In a cross between two bloodlines of games, one spangled and one that is not I have tried crossing back to the spangled side time and time again and each time the spangling disappears after the birds get to be a few months old. Now in the full blood spangles I have 1 hen who is from the same line, only removed by several decades. That hen has turned progressively whiter with age, while the side of that family I started with has not...the hens and original cock have just as much white now at 5 years old as they did at 2 years old.

See, and interesting that you mention that, I was once working with the chicken calculator, guessing that tolbunts were simply a mottled golden laced bird (as most are laced, not tipped like mille fluers) but it didn't seem right, as no tolbunt is quite identical. Each one has too much of this color or too little of that color, quite often in varying places. My frizzled girl's secondary feathers are pure white, but everywhere else seems decently balanced. My cockerel's tail feathers, especially his sickles, are crazy looking - They're a wish wash of white, red, and the tiniest smudges of black.

Rare Feathers: Send that Orloff over here!! He's GORGEOUS!!! . . . Or one of your girls, actually.

They're breathtaking and worth the time to work with!

 

[Vcomb]

http://bob_152.webs.com/rareandunusuals.htm

click the pic of the tollbunt on this link, this is the cock I started with. He was I think 2 years old in that pic. in the background are the orloffs. One had very little spangling on her, so it was possible that the F1 hen I showed earlier was out of her. (this is why I hate trio breeding!)

As you can tell, that bird had his share of faults.

The colors you describe match right up with what we originally thought they should have been bred towards. They are now pushing for a more uniform color/marking, which is the laced + mottled combo. The color you are describing is what was once being discussed as being called a Harlequin, but that name never really went anywhere.

And then if you check on that same webpage on the link marked "gamefowl" and look at the pics of the Morgan Whitehackles in the snow, you'll see the spangling pattern I was talking about.

 

[Illia]

So, are we trying to aim for black lacing or black blotching? The Polish Breeders Club says we're aiming for a more mille fluer type blotching of black, not lacing - But nearly all Tolbunts are laced. . . ?

I see what you mean though. I'm personally fine with trio breeding, but I have enough time on my hands to keep watch of who lays what and when or where. But then again, my trios usually are with females that have notable differences, either with egg color or feather color in offspring.

 

[Vcomb]

The proposed Tollbunt standard listed on the Polish club site was written prior to the new knowledge. So now what we're aiming for is basically a gold lace bird with white tipped feathers. Rewriting the proposed Tollbunt standard is on our to-do list.

Tollbunts are a lot like Crele Polish in that they were released and dispersed way too soon. As a result there's been a ton of confusion in both colors.

 

[Illia]

Well, that clears things up for me. So on with laced crossing it is then.

Oh, and I have to ask, anyone know who in the world owns this handsome cock?

http://www.katherineplumer.com/blog/images/06Nov/112006-TolbuntPolish.jpg

He has a lot of white in the tail and crest, I understand, but the rest is amazing! (photo is from a show in Indiana)

 

[Vcomb]

Quote:
I wish I could recall who owned that bird, I saw it at that show. Excellent size as well. It was at the APA/ABA meet in Indianapolis in 06

 

[Rare Feathers Farm]

Quote:
That we did not fully understand either. You're right if it were true mottled they should have been mottled in both generations. I must reiterate that the Tollbunt blood I had to work with was not properly colored, but at the time we did not know that. Not to veer too far off subject, but I am investigating a type of mottling/spangling that I have observed in Spangled Gamefowl that doesn't seem to follow the normal rules AND it gives a dispersion of white similar to what is found in some mottled Houdans, Tollbunts, and I believe, Exchequer Leghorns. To give an example, this year one pair of my spangled games, both birds heavily spangled produced 1 pullet with not a single white feather on her. This is the first time this had happened. In a cross between two bloodlines of games, one spangled and one that is not I have tried crossing back to the spangled side time and time again and each time the spangling disappears after the birds get to be a few months old. Now in the full blood spangles I have 1 hen who is from the same line, only removed by several decades. That hen has turned progressively whiter with age, while the side of that family I started with has not...the hens and original cock have just as much white now at 5 years old as they did at 2 years old.

See, and interesting that you mention that, I was once working with the chicken calculator, guessing that tolbunts were simply a mottled golden laced bird (as most are laced, not tipped like mille fluers) but it didn't seem right, as no tolbunt is quite identical. Each one has too much of this color or too little of that color, quite often in varying places. My frizzled girl's secondary feathers are pure white, but everywhere else seems decently balanced. My cockerel's tail feathers, especially his sickles, are crazy looking - They're a wish wash of white, red, and the tiniest smudges of black.

Rare Feathers: Send that Orloff over here!! He's GORGEOUS!!! . . . Or one of your girls, actually.

They're breathtaking and worth the time to work with!

He's for sale! LOL

 

[josh44]

Quote:
Just curious, but why wouldn't laced birds be the best cross? Silver lace would be an ok cross I suppose, provided you use the tollbunt roo over the silver lace hens, and only use the pullets from that mating in future crosses back to the tollbunt.

As for using white cresteds, you'll have a hard time getting back to the tollbunt color, mainly due to the wc's not having lacing nor mottling (unless you have largefowl w.c. black mottleds) and they will add even more white to what is generally an already too white crest. Most self blacks have white crested blood in their ancestry as far as I can tell, so there again you run the risk of possibly adding more white to the crest.

The silver laced blood will, what I am told dilute/bleach the gold color into a lighter shade.
& tolbunts are suppose to be dark mohogany color.

I was going to cross my silver laced with gold laced for new blood. But Kathy T, & Larry G. told me I'd be bleaching/diluting my gold color.