Tough lessons for some rookies.

[Alexamac]

So we're learning some hard and fast lessons out here in the country. Looking to get a feel to see if it is an error we ourselves are making or simply bad luck. We have lost 19 Chantecler's, 4 Rouens and Two Chinese Goslings, one injured. 90% of this was yesterday. Let's start at the beginning, warning this is a long post.

There was something in the barn walls, baby somethings, with an angry momma something. I couldn't for the life of me figure out what it was but I could tell it was a nest and momma was away at night, so nocturnal. The next week we picked up a dog wandering down our road (almost hit her). As a dog trainer I can't leave well enough alone in a thunder storm. We ended up with a chicken fatality in the 4 days she stayed. Hubby blamed the dog, I blamed the wall-creature. We bought a live trap and that night, no more wall creature noises of course.

Without further incident, dog back with her owners (very nice people, nice dog too), everyone was hitting good ages. The young Partridge Chanteclers were doing well without their heat lamp in an indoor/outdoor coop and the older mixes were stellar with the free range. We have tons of hedges and tall grass and indoor outdoor runs for the barn. The ducks and goose were getting BIG! and STINKY! So we moved them down to their duck house by the pond for a week to get them used to it, and started letting them out for a bit in the day. Usually I am home all day, 7mos pregnant, I check in on my babies OFTEN. So this week, we began free ranging the younger chanteclers and the ducks/geese. Well, we set up the livetrap at the duck house. I caught a very angry momma barn cat that we know is not an issue. Why she was interested in marshmallows and peanut butter, I'll never know. Maybe I should put some food out for the poor thing.

Day two one goose is injured in his pen, I take him into the house. It's a flesh wound on his leg, albeit a bad one but I knew it was repairable (have helped lots of wild and domestic animals from serious injury). Looking at it I realized something must have grabbed him through the bars, realizing (baby brain), I'd let them out without taking a dog to flush out the bushes. I figured he'd somehow injured himself. I get down to the pond, I am minus a gosling. Never found.

Fast forward to yesterday. The same dog is back. 18 chickens, 4 ducks and the remaining goose are all dead. Mostly not eaten. Just dead. Of what was free ranged we have 5 remaining chickens. 3 Chanteclers, 2 Chantecler mixes, and the goose in our mudroom (had a great bathtub swim with some fantastic dives and he's growing well, goose "physio" is going well. The owner of the dog has been more then helpful and helped with the clean up... and is compensating, but I'm afraid I haven't got the energy for THAT many babies again. We have meat chicks coming tomorrow at Rooney's and 12 ducklings we picked up... yesterday... the one day I wasn't home and doing a head count every two hours! Go figure!

Wondering how severe everyone else has learned these lessons. We're thinking we will have Mr. Goose living up at the barn, ideally he can notify me if things are amiss. We aren't going to attempt a fancy breeding project this year. We intend on picking up some good mixed heritage breed hens at chesterville to hopefully have some broody ones next year and buy some chantecler eggs for a lesser cost. For the duck house by the pond, we've bought a dozen muscovy ducklings which are in the brooder and we think we should pick up an adult pair of large geese for down there.

We really don't want to give up on free ranging. We are doing this for our own food, to provide for ourselves and while I can accept the occasional loss it was SUCH waste and so senseless. We filled a rubbermaid bin and didn't find everyone. The ducks were just dead, all in a row maybe a yard or two apart. Lifeless but looking unharmed. We're worried she'll come back. but have been promised she will be tied. Would love tips on things we can do. First rule, Nothing goes Out if I'm not going to be home all day (6 days a week, I am, and will be). Thoughts appreciated... sorry again for the long post, just feeling a little lost and bewildered and a little like giving up! We are doing this to feed our family with food raised the right way. It was a joy to watch these guys all grow, and while we'd accepted their fate this was something we were not prepared for. There is no doubt what happened. It was broad day light and the dog was sleeping on our porch with blood on her face... Tips, thoughts, added security ideas while still allowing a degree of freedom?

 

[mnferalkitty]

I got guineas and my predators have not attacked since the guineas got big and noisey, thats how I solved my problem. I am not saying guineas would stop all attacks but they are a pretty good warning system.

 

[chfite]

Carriage return.

Get a fence.

Chris

 

[scastle]

a cat got my quail chicks yesterday

but hang in there

 

[Fred's Hens]

I'm sorry the learning curve has been this steep for you and this painful as well.

OK, there's no other way to put this, as country people such as myself, are known to be rather blunt. Just ignore what I say, if you wish, I won't be the least bit offended, even as I mean no offense.

When taking on livestock, stop. Don't. Not until the safe, secure provisions have been made for their care and housing. Out here, in the country, we have every imaginable critter, from coyotes to coons, all of whom want to eat chickens. Some areas have more problems with wild, running dogs than anything else, they can be the worst. We practice the S.S.S. rule almost daily. We don't ask questions. We don't talk about it. It's just done.

A good chicken house includes a safe lockup facility that critters have difficulty entering, if at all. A run must be constructed as tight as Ft Knox if you wish to rely on it for poultry safety. Not chicken wire, but hardware cloth. Stout. Most folks also use guard dogs and/or solar electricity netting too. Free ranging means sobering risks. Unless you know your neighborhood well and the dangers that it poses for wandering, defenseless birds, don't. They'll naively head out in search of grass and bugs and simply will meet their death via coons, wild running dogs, hawks, etc. You just have to know what's out there. Everything feeds on the chicken. I wish you well and hope things get better, moving forward.

 

[centrarchid]

I free range a lot with some of my birds (hens) never being confined during entire lives with lives often exceeeding five years. Several conditions for me seem important for enabling this.

First is a dog(s) that can provide a refuge from most predators that are not excluded by a fence. Dog must be chicken friendly yet willing and able to engage predators successfully. Type of dog will be a function of predators present. If other dogs that are larger than average are threat, then larger dog needed. Individual dog disposition is at least important as breed. Dogs used to be standard part of the barnyard assemblage but many have forgotten this very important resource.

Second is refugia birds can seek that will at least buy time from predators reach until dog can drive predator off. Birds need roost sites they want to use regardless of weather. I like for dog to be able to have complete access to area below roost. Remember so will predators if dog does not prevent. Roost need to be elevated, for me at least 6 feet up and ideally not accessible by critters with limited jumping ability (oppossums and raccoons). Trees, small buildings and farm implements can provide refugia accessible by flying when critters like foxes and dogs visit. Such structures must be low enough for birds to fly up to but high enough ground predators can not get there as well. Brush and other structure can provide cover from flying predators.

Third is your monitoring for predators or other issues not already dealt with. With some existing buildings, predators have areas they can travel or use that dog can not get to like den site in wall. You must deny those options. Do not be afraid to keep live traps out as you already do and have a light rifle handy when dog corners but cannot get to predator. If dog gets riled or birds give alarm, get out there, see what is going on and help deal with threat.

Fourth is forage and feed management. Natural forages I expect to repressent bulk of nutrient supply during production season (spring thru early fall). If birds must go too far, then refugia may not be present where birds go and dog may not be able to respond quickly enough. If flock is of any size or you have hens raising their own young, then birds will not be moving about as single unit which makes guarding for a single dog very difficult. With this respect chickens are very different from the livestock most guardian dogs presently in vogue were selected to guard. Recognize limits of available forage base and be prepared to supplement appropriately with feeds. Feeding stations can also be deployed to enable birds to more effectively use forages and refugia.

Fifth is breed selection. Not all breeds or even species are suitable for free ranging. Birds selected need to be physically and mentally able to use refugia available. They need to be good foragers. I am being particularly vague here since there is lots of variation with respect what is best for your situation.

Finally, be flexible and try not to think in terms of absolutes. Each location is different and some years will present different challenges than others.

 

[Alexamac]

Well reading this helps a little bit. Unfortunately we had many many many of the provisions mentioned implemented. They have an indoor/outdoor coop. It had a 4 foot roost which is now 5ft and I suppose we could move it up to six. We had a dog on premesis who will attack any wild predator. Unfortunately this did not extend to the neighbours dog with whom she had a preexisting relationship.

Generally I am home and doing head counts every two hours. This was an extremely rare situation where I had to go after I had already let everyone out in the morning. Fencing isn't happening because I can't justify the cost for something we are doing to save money. While I realize I'm taking my chances with the occasional loss... this was simply horrific. The dog wiggled into their pen... the door is just what you'd think would be sufficient for a chicken. They had access to a huge shrubbery patch to the right... they have a big mowed field in the middle, and tall grass to the left. Hubby had to crawl under the shrubbery to pull out the bodies. They hid. They were tracked, and she couldn't have spent more than a second or two killing each.

New provisions are higher roosts, dogs still in place (they bark at the very least) and a Chinese goose Gander we've been bringing back to health is doing a fantastic job informing me of the goings on. I don't let them out unless I'm absolutely positive I'll be home... and I'm waiting until later in the afternoon just in case something comes up. According to the rest of the neighborhood, she's never killed chickens owned by any of them. We must be special, but I suspect if she isn't kept control of, they'll be next. We will be reporting any future attack to the township. Unfortunately there is a certain reputation I need to have, as my profession is canine education and training. This needs to be taken in consideration in the way we deal with the situation. We have no problem dispatching coons, foxes, weasels, coyotes... but specifically domestic dogs... unfortunately my hands are tied to methods of non-violence. We will be replacing the flock with lower cost birds just in case... and seeing where we go from here.

Thank you all.

 

[nzpouter]

.. Tips, thoughts, added security ideas while still allowing a degree of freedom?

never let a known predator leave your property alive and cat especially wild ones can do a lot of damage to poultry.

 

[Mattemma]

If it were my dog I would get rid of it.If it were a neighbors dog I would get rid of it and NEVER speak of it. I agree the occasional loss it something to expect. I keep traps set 24/7. I leave animals alone that stay out of my yard,but once they start climbing my fence to enter my domain,eating my crops,and killing my birds.....well they become a predator and/or pest that I deal with harshly.

 

[normanack]

Just a question, no suggestions as I'm a chicken newbie: are you absolutely sure it was the dog? Perhaps she had blood on her face from an already dead or injured chicken? And did you ever find the nest of the noisy critters?

I'm so sorry you lost your animals.