Was I bamboozled by a TS employee?

[chanamarie]

Ok, I know this is discussed constantly here, and I thought I had it down, but a Tractor Store employee has confused me (and maybe he was just plain wrong!)...

I have a flock of chickens...recently laying chickens, soon-to-be-laying chickens, will-lay-in -the-Spring chickens, and young roosters. I have been feeding them Purina's Flock Raiser with oyster on the side in a separate dish. They also (usually) get healthy table scraps for lunch, a small handful of scratch at bed-time and my non-Silkies forage all day (Silkies are in an enclosed coop/run).

I went to buy a new bag of Flock Raiser and a TS employee ran over and pointed me in the direction of Nutrena Layer feed. He said the brand was better for the same price and if I have any birds that are laying, they must have layer feed. I told him what I was doing and he kept saying that they must have layer feed. He was so emphatic, I bought it. But now I'm checking on here and think I could have been right (that it's not great to feed my roosters that and it was ok with All Flock and oyster on the side).

To throw a curveball in there, he also said a lot of people give a feed for meat birds in the winter because of the extra protein.

AND he said I should never feed bread type products to birds under 18 weeks as they can develop a condition called...angel wings? Too late for these, but in the future (I always fed my chicks grit when I started introducing non-chick crumb into their diet, if that makes a difference) what's the deal with this?

Please help me sort fact from fiction!

 

[Ridgerunner]

Bee, I know I'm not going to convince you of anything, we've had too many discussions on too many different topics for me to think anything else. I think we’ve pretty much respected one another and not gotten too personal. On a lot of stuff we agree.

But this is certainly one that I disagree with you about. To me it is a matter of ethics. There are a lot of people on here looking for help that have absolutely no experience with chickens. That’s why they are here, they are looking for help. They don’t understand the differences in how we keep them and what that implies. Some of them are going to be keeping a few chickens in small suburban back yards, often locked up in bare runs, no forage whatever. Some are going to be feeding them nothing but commercial feed falling very close in line with the tests we’ve been talking about. Several people reading these posts aren’t posting about their individual set-ups and management practices. They are reading to gain knowledge.

To me the scientific evidence is very clear, whether you want to believe it or not is up to you. If growing chicks eat nothing but Layer the calcium levels can and often does harm some of them. I cannot in clear conscience tell someone I don’t know how they are managing their chickens it doesn’t matter.

 

[Beekissed]

Another myth? That layer feed is bad for roosters. Poppycock. Been feeding layer feed to all ages for 40 yrs without any health issues at all....never have illness in my flocks. They consume MUCH higher calcium levels in simple clover than they could ever get in layer rations, so the whole calcium debate is a moot point.

 

[Beekissed]

http://www.feedipedia.org/

This link above will tell most anything you will ever need to know on nutritional value of just about any kind of grass or feed grain currently known.


I've searched and searched for studies done on roosters fed layer feeds and the effects thereof for the past several years and have found no studies done. The only study that most people can produce was high calcium fed to meat bird chicks and the effects it had on them, which doesn't even equate to DP chicks and roosters or even layer chicks and roosters in a backyard setting...CX chicks are already not healthy specimens and their growth rate is off the charts due to a high metabolic rate, so the way they metabolize nutrients of all kinds is different then regular birds.

I still say poppycock to all those warnings. The proof lives in my backyard for years and years without issues, so I believe what I see, not what I read on a study done once long ago on birds that are vastly different than mine.

 

[Ridgerunner]

A few things about these studies. The results are usually given that they “can” cause problems. They don’t say each and every bird in the study 100% absolutely will have problems, they say it “can” cause problems. Most of them give percentages of how many die or have problems. It is not 100%.

In these studies they typically cut the chicks apart so experts can look at their internal organs and see what is going on. Internal damage may not be readily evident from outside the bird. The liver or kidneys may be damaged to a point that the bird is just a little less thrifty, not that they fall over dead. If you are running thousands of laying hens like the commercial operations just a bit less thrifty has serious consequences. Perhaps the damage is such that a year of more later the bird can’t handle stress very well and they do become ill or die. Sometimes the damage is subtle, not readily apparent and not immediately apparent.

Almost all these studies are performed on the hybrid meat birds or hybrid commercial layers. These are what the commercial poultry business is concerned with and they are the ones that pay for the studies. Who will pay for studies for our dual purpose birds or bantams? Who is interested in them that has the money?

In these studies one group of chicks is fed nothing but Layer with the control group’s diet also very controlled. It’s not what is in one bite, it’s how many grams of total calcium they eat all day. And it’s not limited to one day either. It’s what they average over several days.

If yours forage for a lot of their feed you aren’t micromanaging their feed or nutrient intake anyway. Quality of forage has a lot to do with it. We all have different quality of forage if we have forage at all. We feed differently. Chicks with my broody hens tend to eat very little feed, the hens take them out to forage most of the day. We are all so unique in how we manage them, quality of forage or treats, broody or brooder, and many other things that one person’s results don’t mean booger snot to someone that raises them totally differently.

Somebody, I thought it was Bobbi but could have been Canoe, I’m not sure, had a study on feeding roosters. I can’t recall if that was excess calcium or excess protein. My memory isn’t what I wish it once was. Anyway the results were that it could lessen fertility. “Could”. Commercial operations would pay for a study like that because they keep a lot of flocks of hens and roosters that produce all the eggs the meat birds or laying hens hatch from. Since roosters are taller than the hens and have bigger heads the roosters eat from feeders up too high for the hens to use. The hens eat from feeders down low but with wire separators so close together that the roosters’ heads don’t fit. Since these hens are fed a feed around 16% protein I think that study might have been about calcium but I could easily be wrong. There are probably other nutrients in those breeding flocks they are worried about for hens versus roosters.

I never feed Layer. I practically always have growing chicks in the flock. While mine forage enough that I probably don’t have to worry about it for my broody raised chicks or my roosters, I just consider it good practice to not feed Layer. Instead I offer oyster shell on the side for the laying hens and feed a Grower with low calcium levels for them all to eat. Since I don’t know how everyone that reads my posts actually raise their chicks or feed them, I’m not going to advise it’s not important. If (“if” is a big word) people are raising them where they are feeding them practically nothing but commercial feed there is way too much scientific evidence out there that it can and often does cause a problem.

 

[Blooie]

I feed All-flock with oyster shell on the side. Why? Because I want to. Yep, that's it, pure and simple! Oh, it started innocently enough...had a flock of chicks and adults together and couldn't keep them out of each other's food. Being relatively new to chickens, the logical thing for me to do was put them all on one food, and "studies showed and the experts said" that layer would harm the rest of my birds. But the determining factor turned out to be my pocketbook and time. I only have to drive 50 miles one way to get the All-flock pellets as opposed to 100 miles one way to get the layer pellets. I have never been able to talk the owner of the closer store to get pellets instead of dust, er, crumbles, but he does carry the All Flock in pelleted form. So there ya go. That said, when new folks ask, I have a tendency to suggest All-flock over layer, and I should probably stop doing that since my own reasons for feeding it are vague at best.

As for studies, I have zero faith in 90% of them. Examples:

Studies show butter bad, margarine good. A couple of years later studies show margarine bad, butter good.
Studies show any kind of alcohol in any form bad....a few years later studies show red wine good.
Eggs, bad. No, eggs good.

It goes on and on, from light bulbs to crops. If you can find a study on one side, you'll likely find another on the opposite side.

Studies by experts don't trump experience because they don't reflect real life - my life.

So I feed All-Flock. My own experience, limited though that is, shows me that my birds are doing fine on it. That's all I need to know, and I don't have to drive for 4 hours to get it. If layer pellets were available at the closer store I'd be flip-flopping this entire post.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Hi.

Ever heard the saying "the road to hell was paved with good intentions"? This is one of those times.

You were right, the employee was incorrect. I would do as Junebuggena suggested and return the layer feed. Too much calcium is bad for your non layers, you already know. And it has no bearing if you already fed some out. The store will still take it back. You didn't do it intentionally. They shouldn't have any problem.

Those people who switch to higher protein during winter is probably because they are feeding 16% layer which is the bare minimum to sustain a layer. But meat bird feed won't have the calcium for layers, so what gives? Has he ever read a nutrition label from the bottom of the bag? Here's my proof.
http://ucanr.edu/sites/poultry/files/186894.pdf

I also use Purina Flock Raiser for my mixed age and gender flock. It's what is available at an affordable price. Other than returning 5 bags of pellets because they were molded in the middle, no problems. I usually by the crumble. The LFS owner said Purina gets mold more often then some others. I had been thinking about buying a pallet until that incident. I would have no way of proving it wasn't my storage that caused it.

Also I have heard of bread causing sour crop but don't think it's age related. Funny how people repeat what they hear without ever finding out for themselves. Most feed store employees have zero animal husbandry experience. Listen to what they have to say, maybe tell them you will consider it. But ALWAYS go with your gut.

 

[lazy gardener]

Ok, I know this is discussed constantly here, and I thought I had it down, but a Tractor Store employee has confused me (and maybe he was just plain wrong!)...

I have a flock of chickens...recently laying chickens, soon-to-be-laying chickens, will-lay-in -the-Spring chickens, and young roosters. I have been feeding them Purina's Flock Raiser with oyster on the side in a separate dish. They also (usually) get healthy table scraps for lunch, a small handful of scratch at bed-time and my non-Silkies forage all day (Silkies are in an enclosed coop/run).

I went to buy a new bag of Flock Raiser and a TS employee ran over and pointed me in the direction of Nutrena Layer feed. He said the brand was better for the same price and if I have any birds that are laying, they must have layer feed. I told him what I was doing and he kept saying that they must have layer feed. He was so emphatic, I bought it. But now I'm checking on here and think I could have been right (that it's not great to feed my roosters that and it was ok with All Flock and oyster on the side).

To throw a curveball in there, he also said a lot of people give a feed for meat birds in the winter because of the extra protein.

AND he said I should never feed bread type products to birds under 18 weeks as they can develop a condition called...angel wings? Too late for these, but in the future (I always fed my chicks grit when I started introducing non-chick crumb into their diet, if that makes a difference) what's the deal with this?

Please help me sort fact from fiction!

1. Since some of your birds won't lay till spring, you are appropriate in choosing a Multi-Flock feed. I'd try to stay under 20%. If it's a 22% feed, you can accomplish that by tossing some scratch on the floor every day. That's just my choice to hold the protein down just a tad, nothing written based on science!

2. Nutrena, really? How much more does the Nutrena cost than their store brand? If he's so sold on "must have layer" why didn't he direct you to the store brand so you could save some money???

3. I can see the extra protein, but he's speaking out of both sides of his mouth. The difference between the feed for meat birds consists in perhaps a bit more protein, and a lot less calcium. Again, this employee is doing double speak. If you used the meat feed, you'd be depriving your birds of all that calcium, which by insisting that you buy layer he insists that they must have.

4. As for bread and angel wing. I did a google search. While this condition does occur occasionally in chickens, it is mostly associated with water fowl. Again, information is totally contradictory. Some text suggests that angel wing is caused by growth occurring too fast, causing joint deformity. PP stated that it was associated with thiamine deficiency which is why ducks should never be given medicated feed. Breads have thiamine added. I simply avoid bread most of the time, b/c I consider it to be inferior in overall nutrition.

If I were you, I'd march that bag of feed back to the store, and demand the feed that you originally intended to buy. Also check the mill dates when you buy feed. Old feed is woefully lacking in nutrients. (one feed expert says that past 42 days, the feed is deteriorating to the point that nutrients are lacking.)

 

[Ravynscroft]

I feed Flock Raiser, but more for the ease of my ducks (usually many ages and lots of ducklings) as it has the Niacin levels they need that chick feed does not...

But x2 Beekissed... I know many that feed layer all the time once they're all adults w/out issues...

And to clarify Angel Wing is indeed a duck issue, but it has NOTHING to do with Thiamine nor is there any harm with feeding medicated starter anymore... medicated used to mean it contained other things, now it is just an added coccidistat which just is almost always unnecessary for ducks...

Angel Wing is caused by either being genetic or too high of protein levels being fed while they are young... 20% is fine, but I never recommend higher... adding a handful of catfish/koi pellets while molting gives them a temporary extra protein boost without overdoing it...

Chickens get split wing, not angel wing...

 

[oldhenlikesdogs]

I found my roosters die at about age 4 when eating layer. They now live longer eating an all flock. Just what I have noticed.