What are the odds? (questions about markes and disease control)

[clickchicks]

Over the weekend I found out that about half a dozen other people who purchased birds from the same farm I did, within the same timeframe that I did, had birds pass away due to what they all suspect to be mareks. About a dozen birds died. The birds were all assumed to be vaccinated, but the farm in question buys from hatcheries so there's of course room for error.

One of mine passed about a month ago. The symptoms weren't super specific (enlarged liver, lack of appetite, lethargy) and the vet said it could be multiple things, including mareks. We sent the bird to A&M's vet diagnostic lab, and they reported the cause of death was most likely a severe bacterial infection.

My other birds, all from the same farm, seem to be healthy and I haven't had any other issues. It sounds like one other person has sent a bird off for necropsy, but hasn't got the results back yet.

I have to assume A&M is extremely experienced in figuring this stuff out. But its really strange that so many birds, from the same place and all purchased within the same month, passed away with similar symptoms. I get that anything is possible, but could a dedicated diagnostic lab that deals with poultry ever single day really have missed something like mareks in a necropsy?

All my current birds are acting totally normal and I'm not so much worried about them, but I'm not sure what this means for any future birds I may want to get. If mareks is in the flock, and the other birds are OK (possibly due to the vaccine), that means they are still shedding it. Is it ever really safe to bring new birds in?

 

[Trisseh]

Some state labs will test feed samples as well; mycotoxins can definitely mess with birds and some seem to have a higher tolerance level than others. And what may have been below threshold for the slightly larger birds may have been too much for the lighter, thinner bird. If you see mould on any of the pieces of feed (Particularly corn or barley, sometimes wheat) that might be part of the problem.
Around here the cost for testing feed for a number of mycotoxins is around the $35-40 mark, not sure what it would be in the states.

 

[Purlsnponies]

Unexpected update to this.

The person who sent their bird off to A&M ended up having the bird lost by the post office. Sadly they ended up losing even more birds, as did another person who bought birds from the same place. Both of them sent the birds in, and A&M is saying Mareks for both.

Which leaves me in an odd position. The necropsy on mine didn't indicate Marek's, buts its hard to move forward assuming it isn't here. The remaining birds all seem healthy, so I'd like to think their vaccine is either working or they were just strong enough to survive it.

Its a massive bummer, as I wanted to look into getting birds from a breeder in the next couple of years. But I don't really feel comfortable doing that anymore. If I want new birds I guess I'm stuck purchasing vaccinated chicks from hatcheries... not the end of the world but it is frustrating.

I'm a total newbie.. but if you wanted to still get chicks from a breeder, would it maybe be possible to buy the vaccine and vaccinate day old chicks yourself? It seems to only come in large batches, so you'd waste a lot.. but it's not expensive. Might be worth it?

 

[JacinLarkwell]

Maybe there was a genetic compound to it. Were they all the same breed?

 

[Trisseh]

Your bird died from an overwhelming infectious process that basically compromised multiple organ systems. What exactly it was, they can’t tell you without further testing. (Usually cultures to see what bugs are causing it) “concomitant multiorgan polymicrobial disease” essentially means lots of organs affected at the same time by multiple pathogens. An example is a calf that doesn’t get adequate colostrum and winds up with multisystem infections like scours, navel infection, and pneumonia all at the same time.
if there had been evidence of mareks that would have been reported under “nervous system” most likely as theres usually peripheral nerve enlargement. Or tumours elsewhere in the body is another common finding.

it would definitely be interesting to see what other bird(s) come back with from the lab... without the additional testing hard to say what the best course of action is for you. Depends on what bugs you’re dealing with, if it’s worth it to treat prophylactically with antibiotics...

 

[clickchicks]

Your bird died from an overwhelming infectious process that basically compromised multiple organ systems. What exactly it was, they can’t tell you without further testing. (Usually cultures to see what bugs are causing it) “concomitant multiorgan polymicrobial disease” essentially means lots of organs affected at the same time by multiple pathogens. An example is a calf that doesn’t get adequate colostrum and winds up with multisystem infections like scours, navel infection, and pneumonia all at the same time.
if there had been evidence of mareks that would have been reported under “nervous system” most likely as theres usually peripheral nerve enlargement. Or tumours elsewhere in the body is another common finding.

it would definitely be interesting to see what other bird(s) come back with from the lab... without the additional testing hard to say what the best course of action is for you. Depends on what bugs you’re dealing with, if it’s worth it to treat prophylactically with antibiotics...

Extremely helpful, thank you so much.

This is actually the first time I'm seeing the full report. When the vet called to give me the rundown they didn't mention additional testing, else I'm sure I would have done it. Frustrating miss on my part, but I should have asked for a copy and didn't.

 

[Parront]

From reading the report, it sounds like your hen has been sick a while, a 4-month-old ought to weigh more than 1.54 pounds. That is about what a healthy 2 month old might weigh. Maybe weigh your others, look very closely at the nostrils for brown or yellow fluid, which this bird had. Feel the breastbone, does it feel very prominent, does it feel sharp & pointy? A too thin bird feels narrow and sharp in the breast. A sick bird will not show it by acting sick until it is too late.

 

[clickchicks]

From reading the report, it sounds like your hen has been sick a while, a 4-month-old ought to weigh more than 1.54 pounds. That is about what a healthy 2 month old might weigh. Maybe weigh your others, look very closely at the nostrils for brown or yellow fluid, which this bird had. Feel the breastbone, does it feel very prominent, does it feel sharp & pointy? A too thin bird feels narrow and sharp in the breast. A sick bird will not show it by acting sick until it is too late.

This is another thing I'm just not good at judging. I don't know what's normal or not.

I did weigh them all this weekend... when I found out other people were having issues I figured it was a good thing to do just in case so I could keep track.

The 3 remaining birds are all about 5 months old now.
I have an Australorp who weighed in about 3 1/2 lbs, a Barred Rock who was at just over 3 lbs and my smallest "Sapphire Gem" who is a little over a 2 1/4 lbs.

The Sapphire Gem seems small to me, I can feel the keel but she still has meat on her breast. I actually took this specific bird to the vet not long before my other bird died. She'd broken her beak— the vet noted at the time that she was lean but didn't feel she was an unhealthy weight, and the beak healed fine and she's eating normally.

Internet searches say Sapphire Gems are only about 4 lbs fully grown, so maybe this is normal?

EDIT:
I know you can't tell weight from looking at a picture, but this is what they look like next to eachother:

The Sapphire Gem is wiry compared to the other two. But she's very active and has a big appetite. She caught and ate a snake in the yard yesterday

 

[Parront]

Eating a snake sounds like a healthy appetite.
They look like getting ready to lay. That is a good sign, sick girls have a pale face and don't lay. I have not had that breed, but I have some White Rocks 10 weeks old that are about 3 pounds. Rocks are usually bigger than other breeds. (That is what I like about them). Give them electrolytes for the heat and general purposes once a week. All you can do is keep an eye on them. And handle them so you get a feel for what is normal for them. Weight loss is not good at this age.

 

[Parront]

Some state labs will test feed samples as well; mycotoxins can definitely mess with birds and some seem to have a higher tolerance level than others. And what may have been below threshold for the slightly larger birds may have been too much for the lighter, thinner bird. If you see mould on any of the pieces of feed (Particularly corn or barley, sometimes wheat) that might be part of the problem.
Around here the cost for testing feed for a number of mycotoxins is around the $35-40 mark, not sure what it would be in the states.

X's 2 -- This can certainly be a factor.