What exactly does breed for resistance mean?

[kathyinmo]

What exactly does breed for resistance mean? Does it mean to allow your flock to be exposed to illness? Or does it mean to not use any vaccinations, and allow them to be carriers? What diseases are there that should be bred for resistance? All diseases, or just some?

Sorry, I just don't get it. I don't want a sick flock, but I don't want to have to give meds and vaccinations all the time either. Please explain all this to me.

Thanks.

 

[NYREDS]

I'll tell you what it means to me.
I do not vaccinate for anything that way yes, the birds I raise are exposed to various pathogens. I also do not medicate for anything other than cocci but that's for a separate discussion. If a bird shows signs of disease it is culled immediately, no matter how good a prospect it appeared to be.
I have followed this program for a number of years and as a result I rarely have a sick bird because I am breeding only from birds with natural disease resistance.
I learned of this program of breeding for resistance from the writing of Fred Jeffrey who, among other things, wrote a book on chicken diseases. In the beginning of the book Dr Jeffrey stated that his chicken medicine cabinet consisted only of louse powder, a coccidiostat & a hatchet. That's all I have in mine.

 

[speckledhen]

Remember that a bird can be exposed to a disease, not contract it, not be a carrier, just "resist" it due to its super healthy immune system. I'm with NYReds on this one. Wish more people would forget their medicine chest full of antibiotics for their flock.

Even if a bird appears to recover from a respiratory illness, I consider that bird a weak link in the flock. Breeding for resistance does not mean you let them become sick, then recover. That would just be setting up yourself for a very weak, immuno-compromised flock. Resistance means they DO NOT get sick because of their strong immune systems.

 

[CityChicker]

This has been a really interesting thread. I think some of you are spot on and some have downright bizarre ideas of breeding for resistance. I think there needs to be a distinction between breeding for resistance in the truest since and simply breeding for strong stock (something somewhat intangible in that we don't know all the factors that make an individual strong or weak). In the strictest sense, breeding for resistance would (to me) be breeding for the genes that protect birds from certain diseases. There are a few known genes that do protect against some specific illnesses, but that discussion is probably beyond the scope of BYC (and it is beyond my current level of education, so I can't say that I feel confident discussing that topic in detail).

There are probably multitudes of factors that make a flock strong and culling for that begins before and during incubation. This fact seems to be lost on many. I have raised birds since the 70's and have been working on a degree in Animal/Poultry science for a few years now in addition to coming from a family that has been in the business. The way that I was raised to do things is so far removed from the way I see people from BYC do things it is hardly even similar. I was taught to raise lots of birds and CULL, CULL, CULL. This holds true not only from a flock management/husbandry perspective, but also from a breed development/improvement perspective.

I have always been taught to only breed from the best stock possible. Set only the well formed and properly colored eggs. Do not assist in hatches. Raise only chicks that show signs of strength and vigor. Cull birds that do hatch, but show signs of any weakness. Definitely do not keep stock that shows signs of illness and NEVER shotgun medicate. As others have said, do not pass your problems on to other people. Cull the birds that are "weaklings". Constantly select for strong, vigorous birds. You don't want to keep the birds that were sick and recovered. You want to keep the birds that never got sick in the first place!

Anyway, all of this seems somewhat counter to the husbandry I frequently see practiced by BYC'ers. When my parents and grandparents were working with a particular breed, they would hatch, at a minimum, a few hundred birds each year in that breed and cull the heck out of them. For some breeds that we kept more for utility (another whole discussion that seems lost on a lot of modern poultry breeders), like the Plymouth Rocks, we would hatch several hundred in one season. My grandparents kept a stump with two nails and an axe in the middle of the yard (sound familiar, LOL). They would cull at the drop of a hat. I swear sometimes they would cull if a chicken just looked at them the wrong way, LOL. They also had incredibly strong and beautiful stock that also served its' purpose (again, the utility for which it was bred). They certainly never would have assisted hatches or made valiant efforts to save or nurture birds that were obviously weak in the first place.

This is what breeding for strong (and yes, probably "resistant") stock means to me. Whether or not, it is "resistance" in the truest academic sense, I am not sure. Day in and day out here on BYC, I see people do things that run completely counter to everything I have learned about poultry husbandry. This is another discussion that really makes me wish that BYC would have some sort of advanced topics board or something similar. As someone that has raised birds for decades, it is obvious to me when someone does not know what they are talking about (and there are a few on this very thread). It is less obvious to people that are new to the hobby. That is unfortunate as we have a number of outspoken "gurus" on BYC that know very little about poultry keeping.

 

[jak2002003]

You may be interested in my chicken rearing experience.

I have been breeding Japanese Bantams and Cochin Bantams for over 12 years.

I have never vaccinated
I have never de wormed
I have never given antibiotics
I have never given vitamins
I have never given oyster shell or chicken grit

My birds are all in top condition.. plump, soft glossy feather, red combs, perfect eyes, smooth legs and feet, friendly and placid and easy to go broody and great mothers and fathers to their chicks. They are very sought after by others into the hobby, and my birds have a very good reputation in my area!

I rarely to never loose one of my birds to a disease.. most die of age related problems.. many of my birds are over 8 years old and still laying and hatching eggs.. I still have 2 of my first birds.. which must be getting on for 13 years old.. one of which survived a horrific dog attack and starvation when she was lost in the forest for over a week when the dog left her to die.

In the first few years I had many problems with disease..

fowl pox, wet and dry
digestive problems
infectious bronchitis
fighting
eye infections
respiratory diseases
scaly leg mites
fungus on the combs and wattles
and other things I have long forgotten

I lost a few birds to these diseases. My treatment was to keep the sick birds in a quiet warm and stress free environment.. give them nutritious foods, put apple cider vinegar in the water... and wait. Most recovered.. a few died or if they were suffering I would cull them.

Over the years I lost fewer and fewer birds to diseases. I would cull out any birds that were aggressive to each other or me.. I would cull any that were bad parents or brooders (such as killing or injuring their chicks or others chicks, or egg eating etc.)

My roosters are so placid.. gently, mix with each other without fighting and don't over breed the hens. The roosters are also great fathers.. seeming to love to socialise with the chicks.

The hens are all good mothers and show little to no aggression to other hens chicks.. allowing them all to mix into big groups and the hens share nests, brooding and care of the chicks.

Over the years it has been survival of the fittest by nature.. and the culling of birds with bad temperaments by me.

My birds are free range during daylight hours.. living in an orchard.. they get all the greens and insects they need by themselves. In the evening they go back to their coop and I just lock the door.

The only feed I give them is a general flock raiser.. I give this to all ages. They also get some wild bird seed (as my fancy pigeons also share their coop).

I give them back their egg shells to eat.. and they eat snails and their shells, and grit when they are free ranging.

I put apple cider vinegar in the water 2 or 3 times a week. And they get clean water 2 X a day.

The only chemical I use is a dog flea powder.. which a shake into their dust baths occasionally.. although I have never seen any mites or lice on the chickens feathers or bodies.

I cured the scaly leg mites using cooking oil on their legs a few times. (here again I notices it was certain lines of birds that's seemed less resistant to the scaly mites).

That's it.. so I can say breeding for resistance really works for non commercial flocks.

PS. I rarely buy in new birds.. but on occasion, when I have, I noticed how they have virtually no resistance to common diseases.. and some will die. An example is dry fowl pox.. which all my growing chicks get once they reach adulthood.. but they only get a few lesions and don't get ill and all recover fast. a new bird will get the same strain of fowl pox but get many lesions and will seem to be suffering... and take much longer to recover. I even had one new pullet only get one lesion on her comb and she was dead 2 days later!!!

I think the chicken breeders are over medicating their birds, and also keeping them indoors or in very bio secure environments.. so they have little to no resistance to diseases out in the real world or free ranging. However, when I cross breed them to my birds the resulting offspring seem to inherit the resistance from my stock.

I know of other breeders who vaccinate all their birds, almost constantly have them on anti coccidiosis medication or some kind of anti biotic.. and their birds are skinny weak looking things... and once they come off the medication the go downhill fast.

 

[geeber]

Such good questions. I'm waiting w/ you for answers.

 

[big medicine]

The theory as I understand it is, by vaccinating for say marek's you could be promoting, or allowing a line of birds that might potentially be hyper sensitive to survive. By not vaccinating the suseptable birds will drop out of the gene pool, allowing the resistant birds to dominate the blood line. Over time the line should become less suseptable to outbreaks. Survival of the fittest in action so to speak.

 

[gogoalie]

Breeding for resistence is exactly that. Exposing them to disease, via no vaccinations, & then gettin' sick, & allowing them to recover or die, & then breed that specific bird to produce offspring with a greater chance to defeat what ever infected the bird. Overtime, bred enough, you'll get a very disease resistant bird strain.

 

[kathyinmo]

Well then, how does this work with the birds being, "carriers?" If they are exposed, and live, they are called carriers of some diseases, correct? Which diseases, all of them? What about Mareks, MS, MG, etc (heck, I don't even know the names of all the poultry diseases!) I thought those diseases killed all the birds, or makes them carriers. How does that work .... would that mean you will always have (example MS) Mycoplasma Synoviae in your flock?

And what about the diseases that are passed through the egg .... I think MG is one of them .... what do ya do about that?

 

[lildinkem]

Quote:
I love to hear that others here on BYC that follow the old school type rememedies. I like to think using different lines within a breed strengthens my birds from the everyday horrible diseases that plague the line breeders.
My worst experience was from hatchery stock that had been obviously been inbred too long. And I agree, the weak will die and the strong lives on. That is how mother natures works.
I had another BYC member a year or so forward me these remedies that are also Old School cures. Lots of neat info.
I know in the past when I posted these, some appreciated it. hope some out there get the same enjoyment from these ideas.
Thought I'd share.

Cod liver oil (for vitamin D deficiency)
- Oyster shell grit (for digestion)
- Dried crushed pumpkin seeds (Worms)
- Garlic (Worms, chest infection)
- Apple Cider vinegar (Worm and tonic, better calcium and Vit.D absorption)
- Cat food (protein)
- Tuna (protein)
- Egg yolk (protein)
- Honey (energy)
- Yoghurt (digestive tract)
- Grated apple (mineral and vitamin; coccidiosis)
- Baby rice/oats (Bulking in food mix)
- Back rescue remedy (Trauma)
- Orange, Rosemary, clove oils (fleas)
- Wormwood, tansy (immune booster)
- Olive oil (Sour crop, crop binding)
- Probiotics (harmful microbes)
- Baking soda (Crop flush - mix 1/2 cup in a pint of water and syringe it 3 x)
- Nettle (tonic)
- Vaseline (Scaly legs, frostbite, cut)
- Cayenne pepper (worm, coccidiosis)
- Colloidal silver (Anti fungal/viral/microbial)
- Sulphur dust (lice)
- Whey powder (Coccidiosis)
- Chickweed (Immune booster)
- Oregano oil (Immune booster)
- Peppermint, catnip, marigold oil (mite repellent)
- Diatamacious Earth or DE (Calcium, wormer, mite, prevent fly from hatching)
- Vitamin E oil (Molting stress, fertility problems)
- Hypericum (pain relief, nerve damage, stress and Marek)
- Cornstarch (cut)
- Pine tar (cannibalism)
- Black sunflower seeds (Worm)

Or per ailments, this gives us:
TONIC
*Vit. D deficiency: Cod liver oil, ACV
*Tonic: ACV, grated apple, nettle
* Calcium defi ciency: AVC, Oyster shel l, DE, Crushed eggshell
* Protein deficiency: Cat food, tuna, egg yolk
* Energy boost: honey
*Immune boost: Wormwood, Tansy, probiotics, colloidal silver, chickweed, oregano oil
DIGESTIVE TRACT
*Digestion problem: Oyster grit, yoghurt
*Bulk for medicine: Baby rice, baby oat
*Sour crop: Olive oil
*Crop binding: Olive oil
*Crop flush: Baking soda
PARASITES
*Worm: Pumpkin Seeds, garlic, ACV, cayenne pepper, DE, Black sunflower seeds
*Fleas: Orange/Rosemary/Clove oils
*Lice: Sulphur powder
*Mites: Peppermint, catnip, marigold oil, DE as repellent
*Fly: DE
ILLNESS
*Chest infection: garlic water
*Coccidiosis: Grated apple, cayenne pepper, whey powder
* Marek: Hypericum (I think it is the same as St John's wort)
OTHER
*Trauma: Bach Flower Rescue Remedy
*Cut: Vaseline, cornstarch, pine tar
*Frostbite: Vaseline
*Scaly leg: Vaseline
*Molting stress: All protein stuff, Vit. E
*Fertility: Vitamin E
*Pain relief: Hypericum
*Nerve damage: Hypericum
*Stress: Hypericum