⠀ Chickens need more protein?

Good information EggSighted4Life.

I always get 2nd or 3rd opinion about everything. I guess I should've asked him more details on how he is feeding. He might be mixing it with something else to make a special blend for his chicken or it might be just for growing chicks, etc. I wasn't confidence in my own opinion because I have never kept chicken and don't have anything to back myself with.

My guess is that Purina made their products specific for chickens because I find their Layer have too much calcium for my quails even when I mix it with the Game Starter to get that higher protein - their eggs have a lot of calcium pimples. Over time I finally got the right ratio for my birds: 1 part Layer to 2 parts Game Starter which is about 24% protein and I think that's good for game birds.

When I say high protein damage the liver, I was referring to pigeons. My research on pigeons says that pigeons shouldn't have more than 18% protein otherwise the extra protein will damage their liver in the long run. Which I don't know if it's true or not because my pigeon waste a lot of food, but never the high proteins - split peas, lentils, and chick peas.

The difference with pigeons is that they are designed to exclusively eat grains and seeds. Chickens are omnivores.

donut314 said:

Good information EggSighted4Life.

I always get 2nd or 3rd opinion about everything. I guess I should've asked him more details on how he is feeding. He might be mixing it with something else to make a special blend for his chicken or it might be just for growing chicks, etc. I wasn't confidence in my own opinion because I have never kept chicken and don't have anything to back myself with.

My guess is that Purina made their products specific for chickens because I find their Layer have too much calcium for my quails even when I mix it with the Game Starter to get that higher protein - their eggs have a lot of calcium pimples. Over time I finally got the right ratio for my birds: 1 part Layer to 2 parts Game Starter which is about 24% protein and I think that's good for game birds.

When I say high protein damage the liver, I was referring to pigeons. My research on pigeons says that pigeons shouldn't have more than 18% protein otherwise the extra protein will damage their liver in the long run. Which I don't know if it's true or not because my pigeon waste a lot of food, but never the high proteins - split peas, lentils, and chick peas.

Click to expand...

Waste definitely stinks... sounds like they know what the good stuff is though.

I was planning to go with 25% protein if I decided to raise quail. The game bird starter available to us is 28%. But I wonder if it was important to you not to have to mix for protein levels... would your pigeons eat oyster shell to meet their needs like other birds do? I think Purina does have a game bird feed... but it might not be available at every store. If I want something specific my LFS owner usually has no problems getting it for me at their still reasonable prices as what they already stock. I have also considered using peas as a protein boost if I needed to. But my hubby is still eyeballing my chicken math! Making me wait for a more opportune time to bring quail on board.

I'm sure it's true that too much of a lot of things could cause organ damage. And it likely depends on the individual. I have a friend who has to avoid all kinds of stuff (even spinach a supposedly healthy food because it is high in oxylates ) or they get kidney stones. Where as I can enjoy what I want with out that issue. He however can enjoy candy bars without worrying about the sugar causing kidney failure long term. But with my diabetes (an obscene word), and having seen other family members go through it (dialysis) to ultimately end in congestive heart failure, makes me aware that it is a possibility for me. So we make lifestyle adjustment. And we do the same things for our birds with the information we available to us at the time. And adjust if we learn something new.

Have a great day... and good job looking out for fellow poultry keepers, if I didn't already say that.

16% layer didn't work for me at all. I had adult sultans, just backyard birds. On 16% they lost a lot of weight and quit laying at all (even after worming). That was in addition to dried meal worms which I gave almost daily. Flock raiser was better but the size of it caused a lot of waste and they still couldn't get over the weight loss from 16%. I went back to my purina gamebird %28 and they gained their weight back slowly and went back to laying eggs. My sultans didn't eat a lot and they sure didn't forage even given the opportunity since they free ranged all day. So for me 28% worked best. Then Purina went and changed it again The last bag I bought was almost powder. Had a lot of waste since nothing but newly hatched button quail will eat powder.

I'm now growing out sultans, standard cochins and serama chicks and using purina start and grow. It's working ok so far. I may have to boost my protein in the future when the sultans are adults though. I really wish there was a higher percentage protein pellet for layers, maybe a 20%.

Let me add that I have aviaries. We did toss out seed waste to the chickens which would lower their daily protein percent from the 28 game bird. They did forage for bird seed, but not bugs. I figure the daily protein intake would have been around 20-22% and the sultans were a healthy weight and maintained it while also providing 4-5 eggs a week

yellowherb said:

16% layer didn't work for me at all. I had adult sultans, just backyard birds. On 16% they lost a lot of weight and quit laying at all (even after worming). That was in addition to dried meal worms which I gave almost daily. Flock raiser was better but the size of it caused a lot of waste and they still couldn't get over the weight loss from 16%. I went back to my purina gamebird %28 and they gained their weight back slowly and went back to laying eggs. My sultans didn't eat a lot and they sure didn't forage even given the opportunity since they free ranged all day. So for me 28% worked best. Then Purina went and changed it again The last bag I bought was almost powder. Had a lot of waste since nothing but newly hatched button quail will eat powder.

I'm now growing out sultans, standard cochins and serama chicks and using purina start and grow. It's working ok so far. I may have to boost my protein in the future when the sultans are adults though. I really wish there was a higher percentage protein pellet for layers, maybe a 20%.

Let me add that I have aviaries. We did toss out seed waste to the chickens which would lower their daily protein percent from the 28 game bird. They did forage for bird seed, but not bugs. I figure the daily protein intake would have been around 20-22% and the sultans were a healthy weight and maintained it while also providing 4-5 eggs a week

Click to expand...

So why not just use the Flock Raiser (20% protein, it comes in pellets or crumbles) and provide the oyster shell on the side?

Ever considered fermenting? I love the results and it isn't hard to do. Check the link in my signature line if you like. Reason I mention it is there is zero powder waste, it increases nutrient availability and absorption, and decreases the poo stink significantly because of the better digestion, as well as provides probiotics. Ultimately saving a little cash because the increased nutrient availability causes a *slight* decrease in overall consumption. But who knows how much saving from the health quality increase of the birds. Some people who have done it for a while even claim the longevity of their birds has increased. Note, chickens are creatures of habit. So when you introduce them to it may take a few days for them to realize it is feed and adjust to actually liking it. Let me know if I can answer any questions!

My birds don't care for pellets (at least in the past when I had only 3 birds, 50 are a lot more adventurous and competitive). So I go with crumbles (though it doesn't matter when fermented). But a great tip to decrease waste is making sure your feeders are at the same level as their back. Another poster said that if they got purina products from the Turlock mill it was always super powdery. Even posted pictures I wouldn't have believed without seeing. The ones I get come from somewhere with the start RIV, maybe riverside... Anyways, never had the dust problem from them. You can see which mill, I think across the bottom of the bag at the seem. They all must be labeled. Interesting, I usually get crumble but LFS was out so I got pellets and 4 out of 5 bags were moldy on the inside with no evidence of storage issues outside the bags. LFS owner said it's usually the pellets when she does have issues. I did buy a bag of pellets so it wouldn't have as much powder as crumbles and when I need to throw out a "treat" for them to scratch at, they really enjoy it and it isn't decreasing any of the nutrient value! I also raise live meal worms and sprout barley (sometimes to fodder stage).

Thank you for sharing your personal experience regarding protein levels and chickens including which breeds. It's valuable info and just goes to show that what works for most may not work for all.

josie705 said:

This is not a problem that I have, but it's both a question and observation from other people's protein problems.

If chickens on layer feed need more protein, shouldn't people look for a layer feed with more protein? Why haven't businesses started making layer feed with more protein? To me, it sounds like a plot to get you to buy their supplements.

What are your thoughts on this?

Click to expand...

Many say that 16% -18% is all they can find, but here in TN I get a commercial pellet at our local co-op that is 21% and it is labeled "Layer" not game bird or other.

I just ask for bags of #126 (which is pellet) and I think the game game bird crumbel is #194, both commercial blends, not feed store blends or mixes.


Layer Pellet 21% -http://www.ourcoop.com/productcatalog/Main/Item.aspx?fl=311&ii=126PE&mod=F

Game bird Crumble 28% -http://www.ourcoop.com/productcatalog/Main/Item.aspx?fl=312&ii=194CR&mod=F


I dont know if the other states have this Feed supply store (CO-OP) but I am grateful for our local co-op. I just wish they did mail orders and pre orders as they are usually out of one or the other when I need them to most.

Many think the birds can get by on just regular scratch and such up to xx% and that is true, but they sustain better if they can free range for insects and other proteins...But in the cage/coop/run, I think all birds need a little more boost of meat proteins as they cant seek out the insects and worms which has more proteins than any common seed they may find.

BobDBirdDog said:

Many think the birds can get by on just regular scratch and such up to xx% and that is true, but they sustain better if they can free range for insects and other proteins...But in the cage/coop/run, I think all birds need a little more boost of meat proteins as they cant seek out the insects and worms which has more proteins than any common seed they may find.

Click to expand...

Regular scratch is usually 8% protein...

I have yet to see a single person who feeds only scratch, free range or not... that has healthy birds. But I have seen many who come on here with birds that get only scratch that are almost dead and can't figure out why they haven't been laying, loosing feathers, and such. A lot of issues can be avoided by proper nutrition.

And really how effective free ranging is depends on your environment. Here, I might be able to raise the right breed on JUST forage just fine. I am in the PNW, on 1 acre where bugs and greens of many sorts abound all year long. But when I lived on a city lot in the desert, bugs were harder to find, to virtually non existent during the heat of summer and the green forage was much lesser of a variety. And then you add the cold winters, again no bugs and limited greens.

My guess is that feed formulas are made nutritionally sound for most confined situations and breeds. And with so many watch dog groups they are fairly regulated. Here is a link to some simple to understand info. There is one typo that say 5%, I'm guessing is actually supposed to be 15%. Still good info.

http://ucanr.edu/sites/poultry/files/186894.pdf

Also, as far as protein goes, I doubt the body knows the difference between bug protein verses say barley or pea protein. So as long as the commercial feed has the right protein content with it's other nutrients... how can you explain industry birds who never range or see a bug in their life cranking out eggs every day? Not saying it's right... but they are all light breed birds, making their requirements less than heavy breeds.

And most chicks are brooded indoors, rarely seeing a bug until they move outside, Yet they thrive on the feed with the protein level recommended for their age.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to seem argumentative.

I would be curious to know what your 21% layer feed gives up in exchange for the extra protein... (guess it's called Layer Concentrate)

actually, I looked at it and that would probably be one I would avoid for a few reasons (just me not saying anything about you)... but it says it is formulated to be mixed with grains "to provide the proper balance of all ingredients"... and "if egg shell quality declines after 10-12 months of laying, course ground limestone should be offered free choice or top dressed". But the kicker for me is the vagueness of the actual ingredients... grain products, processed grain by products, plant protein products, animal protein products, forage products... I like to know what's going in.. corn, soy, wheat, cat gut and rat legs... but come on they could be selling me saw dust with added nutrients under this kind of label. I realize some label like that because they change their formulation according to what grain product might be available and still meet the same total value. Just not my cup of tea... er uh chicken feed.

Did you actually catch that it was supposed to be mixed with grains and not used as a sole ration?

Yes, I have spent WAY too much time reading labels when trying to decide what to feed... making me a little bit of a label natzi.

So cool for you to share another product that is available, even if it won't work for me. It's nice to have options!

EggSighted4Life said:

So why not just use the Flock Raiser (20% protein, it comes in pellets or crumbles) and provide the oyster shell on the side?

Ever considered fermenting? I love the results and it isn't hard to do. Check the link in my signature line if you like. Reason I mention it is there is zero powder waste, it increases nutrient availability and absorption, and decreases the poo stink significantly because of the better digestion, as well as provides probiotics. Ultimately saving a little cash because the increased nutrient availability causes a *slight* decrease in overall consumption. But who knows how much saving from the health quality increase of the birds. Some people who have done it for a while even claim the longevity of their birds has increased. Note, chickens are creatures of habit. So when you introduce them to it may take a few days for them to realize it is feed and adjust to actually liking it. Let me know if I can answer any questions!

My birds don't care for pellets (at least in the past when I had only 3 birds, 50 are a lot more adventurous and competitive). So I go with crumbles (though it doesn't matter when fermented). But a great tip to decrease waste is making sure your feeders are at the same level as their back. Another poster said that if they got purina products from the Turlock mill it was always super powdery. Even posted pictures I wouldn't have believed without seeing. The ones I get come from somewhere with the start RIV, maybe riverside... Anyways, never had the dust problem from them. You can see which mill, I think across the bottom of the bag at the seem. They all must be labeled. Interesting, I usually get crumble but LFS was out so I got pellets and 4 out of 5 bags were moldy on the inside with no evidence of storage issues outside the bags. LFS owner said it's usually the pellets when she does have issues.

I did buy a bag of pellets so it wouldn't have as much powder as crumbles and when I need to throw out a "treat" for them to scratch at, they really enjoy it and it isn't decreasing any of the nutrient value!

I also raise live meal worms and sprout barley (sometimes to fodder stage).

Thank you for sharing your personal experience regarding protein levels and chickens including which breeds. It's valuable info and just goes to show that what works for most may not work for all.

Click to expand...

They didn't like the flock raiser, so they either continued to loose weight due to not eating it or it just wasn't high enough in protein. I'm in a pretty small town so I have to use what I can find. So far it's all been crumbles

I have 3-4 months of chicks growing out before I have to start worrying too much about layer. I thank you very much for the info on the mills. That's well worth exploring for me.

I also sprout fodder, lots and lots of fodder. Sultans did not like going into the yard to get it themselves, spoiled chickens! they would happily decimate the containers of fodder grown for them.

Sultans being feathered as they are probably do have slightly higher protein needs than most chickens. I know molts with my flock looked like a explosion in a feather factory for over a month.

ChickenCanoe said:

12% protein is usually a gamebird maintenance for adult birds in non-breeding season.
15% is usually a finisher feed for meat birds.
Less than 16% protein is insufficient for body maintenance and egg laying.
Some feeds like feather fixer have about 3-4% calcium and about 18% protein. Breeder feeds are usually 17% protein.
I have access to a 20% protein layer feed but it is intended to be supplemented with scratch grains to lower the overall protein.

You may want to ask your feed mill why they are providing a layer feed with only 12% protein.

Click to expand...

This is the exact problem I am having. Where I live alot of people have fighting roosters 'gamebirds' so they sell mostly this 12% as chicken feed. I am now having a huge issue with feather plucking and I believe the man switched my bags (no tags of course on the bag) and gave me the wrong feed. I'll be going back to the name brand feed and store. I am just miserable about the destruction two bags of low protein feed have done. I have a rooster missing 30% of his feathers only on his right side. (hen sleeps on his right side). I have removed the biggest offender for plucking but the damage is done.