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Cream Legbars - Page 874

post #8731 of 11104

Thoughts for Ashley and Rod-T, 

 

Perhaps the guy who said "Lineage isn't important" -- was thinking of that one minute in the Poultry Show/Exhibition that the judge spends with one particular bird-in-hand to do the judging.  The judge is astute and thorough and evaluates the chicken he/she is holding ..... So in that moment Lineage isn't important.   The only thing that is important is results, that chicken in that moment.

 

On the other-hand I agree with what Rod-T said, that a breeder would know the background of their chickens.  (even though chickens are not supposed to have pedigrees, there are some true breeders that really do know their chicken's pedigrees.... and there are people who call themselves breeders just because they incubate chicken eggs.  )  

 

Can one  bad iffy apple spoil the whole bunch?  I guess so - if this person has deterred Rod-T from acquiring the breed.  

 

We know for certain that the CL was only successfully and legally (according to USDA records) imported to the USA by GFF.  We also know now that the people in the UK did a lot of outcrossing to 'improve' the breed, and some of those that did, failed to do a good job in 1.outcrossing in a way that didn't mess up auotsexing 2. outcrossing in a way that didn't mess up blue eggs - Conversely we know that when Applegarth got CLs in the late 80's they required outcrossing for survival.

 

From what I know Canadian poultry/eggs are not restricted if they travel by road...so there could be a legal successful Canadian strain here.  

 

Why people would/are secretive and not up front -- ??  Baffles me -- but people who raise livestock do think in magical terms sometimes -- and don't want to share their trade secrets.   Or other times they will share them and your mind boggles.  We encountered that in the cattle business.  I have one for my chickens 'no chlorinated water' --  Certainly not harmful, they were raised on well water and once I moved here and have city water--- I let it sit just as you do for a fish tank so the chlorine can dissipate --   No science behind it, no studies etc.  Just thinking that the gut flaura and fauna would do better without chlorine.  So maybe these 'magical' formula are their trade secret and there is really nothing underhanded there -- they just think it is what makes their chickens 'better' than everyone elses.  Dunno -- What do you think?

:idunno

Marek's:http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/mareks-disease-fact-site

BYC page:  http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/chickats-page  

BYC blog of sorts  http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/jottings-ii

 

"Was dich nicht umwirft, macht dich starker"   "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger."-Friedrich Nietzsche 

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Marek's:http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/mareks-disease-fact-site

BYC page:  http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/chickats-page  

BYC blog of sorts  http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/jottings-ii

 

"Was dich nicht umwirft, macht dich starker"   "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger."-Friedrich Nietzsche 

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post #8732 of 11104
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicKat View Post
 

Thoughts for Ashley and Rod-T, 

 

Perhaps the guy who said "Lineage isn't important" -- was thinking of that one minute in the Poultry Show/Exhibition that the judge spends with one particular bird-in-hand to do the judging.  The judge is astute and thorough and evaluates the chicken he/she is holding ..... So in that moment Lineage isn't important.   The only thing that is important is results, that chicken in that moment.

 

On the other-hand I agree with what Rod-T said, that a breeder would know the background of their chickens.  (even though chickens are not supposed to have pedigrees, there are some true breeders that really do know their chicken's pedigrees.... and there are people who call themselves breeders just because they incubate chicken eggs.  )  

 

Can one  bad iffy apple spoil the whole bunch?  I guess so - if this person has deterred Rod-T from acquiring the breed.  

 

We know for certain that the CL was only successfully and legally (according to USDA records) imported to the USA by GFF.  We also know now that the people in the UK did a lot of outcrossing to 'improve' the breed, and some of those that did, failed to do a good job in 1.outcrossing in a way that didn't mess up auotsexing 2. outcrossing in a way that didn't mess up blue eggs - Conversely we know that when Applegarth got CLs in the late 80's they required outcrossing for survival.

 

From what I know Canadian poultry/eggs are not restricted if they travel by road...so there could be a legal successful Canadian strain here.  

 

Why people would/are secretive and not up front -- ??  Baffles me -- but people who raise livestock do think in magical terms sometimes -- and don't want to share their trade secrets.   Or other times they will share them and your mind boggles.  We encountered that in the cattle business.  I have one for my chickens 'no chlorinated water' --  Certainly not harmful, they were raised on well water and once I moved here and have city water--- I let it sit just as you do for a fish tank so the chlorine can dissipate --   No science behind it, no studies etc.  Just thinking that the gut flaura and fauna would do better without chlorine.  So maybe these 'magical' formula are their trade secret and there is really nothing underhanded there -- they just think it is what makes their chickens 'better' than everyone elses.  Dunno -- What do you think?

:idunno


It's great to give people the benefit of the doubt, but the reality is that many of the folks selling CL's are just propagators of the breed......they are not breeders. It is very easy to put two chickens together and get a lot of babies to sell. These people are not breeders just because they are hatching a lot of birds and selling them. I would say that very few people selling CL's are breeders of any level of skill. They are just making babies and selling them as fast as they can as their sole purpose is money.

 

People are selling CL's for a lot of money so the propagators jump on this and crank out lots of birds while the prices are high. A real breeder would know exactly where their birds came from and what their background is.

 

In November I will be attending the British National show and my plans include visiting with members of the British Legbar Club.

 

Walt

post #8733 of 11104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod-T View Post

He replied. . Said it was a gift from a friend several years ago.
Seems a little odd. Wouldn't disclose any more the that.said it was prudent to question the lineage.

Okay...I had to go to ebay and look at the photos of this "Canadian" stock.  

 

Bottom line is that they are NOT good stock. They don't have any cream plumage, the cockerel doesn't have an erect comb, they have too much red enhancement, The cockerel has all white tail feather, they have high tail angles, etc.  They look like all the photos that were on ebay in 2011-2012 for GFF stock.  These don't look like a new bloodline to me.  They have all the traits of the 2010 GFF imported line. In the fall of 2011 These birds would have been average quality Legbars for what was being posted on Ebay but going directly to GFF you could have got better quality birds.  With four years of progress in the 2010-2011 imported lines and the addition of the 2013 imported Rees line the quality in the USA has greatly improved to where this Canadia stock looks like well...that the Canadians are 3 years behind on there work with the GFF lines.    


Edited by GaryDean26 - 9/30/15 at 8:37am

Down to just Cream Legbars...

 

Cream Legbar Club 

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Down to just Cream Legbars...

 

Cream Legbar Club 

Reply
post #8734 of 11104
Quote:
Originally Posted by fowlman01 View Post
 


It's great to give people the benefit of the doubt, but the reality is that many of the folks selling CL's are just propagators of the breed......they are not breeders. It is very easy to put two chickens together and get a lot of babies to sell. These people are not breeders just because they are hatching a lot of birds and selling them. I would say that very few people selling CL's are breeders of any level of skill. They are just making babies and selling them as fast as they can as their sole purpose is money.

 

People are selling CL's for a lot of money so the propagators jump on this and crank out lots of birds while the prices are high. A real breeder would know exactly where their birds came from and what their background is.

 

In November I will be attending the British National show and my plans include visiting with members of the British Legbar Club.

 

Walt

Yes, I would tend to agree that the term 'breeder' is used loosely.  In the 2005 Ameraucana Breeders Club Handbook is a great article by M.K. Gilbert (revised 1998)  -- maybe we can get permission to reprint it. 

 

Strangely I don't think we are aware of a British Legbar Club--so it will be very interesting to hear what you find out over there.  Hope that you will have time to fill us in on a lot of information that you are able to pick up over there.!  Thanks. 

Marek's:http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/mareks-disease-fact-site

BYC page:  http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/chickats-page  

BYC blog of sorts  http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/jottings-ii

 

"Was dich nicht umwirft, macht dich starker"   "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger."-Friedrich Nietzsche 

Reply

Marek's:http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/mareks-disease-fact-site

BYC page:  http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/chickats-page  

BYC blog of sorts  http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/jottings-ii

 

"Was dich nicht umwirft, macht dich starker"   "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger."-Friedrich Nietzsche 

Reply
post #8735 of 11104
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicKat View Post
 

Yes, I would tend to agree that the term 'breeder' is used loosely.  In the 2005 Ameraucana Breeders Club Handbook is a great article by M.K. Gilbert (revised 1998)  -- maybe we can get permission to reprint it. 

 

Strangely I don't think we are aware of a British Legbar Club--so it will be very interesting to hear what you find out over there.  Hope that you will have time to fill us in on a lot of information that you are able to pick up over there.!  Thanks. 

I checked the show catalog and you are correct. There does not seem to be a Legbar club, but they mention Legbars here.

The Rare Poultry Society

Mr Stuart R Clark, Common Farm Bungalow, Sustead Rd, Lower Gresham, Norwich, Norfolk NR11 8RE Tel: 01263 577843; email: secretary@rarepoultrysociety.org.uk

 

In any event there will be Legbars in the show, so I will have an opportunity to talk to breeders.

 

Walt

post #8736 of 11104
Quote:
Originally Posted by fowlman01 View Post
 

I checked the show catalog and you are correct. There does not seem to be a Legbar club, but they mention Legbars here.

The Rare Poultry Society

Mr Stuart R Clark, Common Farm Bungalow, Sustead Rd, Lower Gresham, Norwich, Norfolk NR11 8RE Tel: 01263 577843; email: secretary@rarepoultrysociety.org.uk

 

In any event there will be Legbars in the show, so I will have an opportunity to talk to breeders.

 

Walt

Yes...that is correct the Cream Legbar falls under the jurisdiction of the Rare Poultry Society.  

 

 I saw last year that the Auto-sexing Poultry Society was going to be re-established and they started a one year madatory probation period in November of 2014.  Once they complete their one year and get approval from the PCGB they will petition that the Brockbar, Brussbar, Cambar, Dorbar, Cream Legbar, Legbar, Rhodebar, Welbar,and Wyba breeds be move to their jurisdiction.  

 

Bob Driver is the President of the APA (Auto-sexing Poultry Accociation).  I don't have contact information for him or the ABA, but am guessing that Mr. Stuart Clark would have contact information if you have any interest in contacting Bob.

Down to just Cream Legbars...

 

Cream Legbar Club 

Reply

Down to just Cream Legbars...

 

Cream Legbar Club 

Reply
post #8737 of 11104
Quote:
Originally Posted by fowlman01 View Post
 

I checked the show catalog and you are correct. There does not seem to be a Legbar club, but they mention Legbars here.

The Rare Poultry Society

Mr Stuart R Clark, Common Farm Bungalow, Sustead Rd, Lower Gresham, Norwich, Norfolk NR11 8RE Tel: 01263 577843; email: secretary@rarepoultrysociety.org.uk

 

In any event there will be Legbars in the show, so I will have an opportunity to talk to breeders.

 

Walt

Thanks Walt. 

 

As I understand it, there is a single individual over there who calls himself the CreamLegbarClub.UK ( I think he has no members in the Club) - I think he attempted to borrow some things from the USA's Club without permission.  Have I heard a rumor that he wanted to patent the CL and that no one in the world except himself had 'real' CLs.    

 

And there is a group called the Cotswold Legbar that over the years even just since I have been involved with the breed changed their stock from random chickens with varied markings - a bit like a land-race such as the Swedish Flower Hens - where all were different, some were crested some weren't -- eggs of all colors - a bit like USA Easter Eggers -- to now have a flock that looks very much like Cream Legbars - but still doesn't have consistent blue eggs...and I hear now they claim that Cotswalds are autosexing, and they are the only source..they will sell pullets at a very high price from what I hear, but never a male, and never hatching eggs.    By mixing enough Cream Legbar blood into their Cotswalds -- they probably could achieve autosexing if they were able to establish Duckwing + barring --- It does lend to a lot of confusing tales floating around ... (or confusing tails). 

 

This could also be part of the lore surrounding the breed as well. 

:th

 

So a good question for you, Walt, if there is a breed of chicken that is owned by only one individual, or perhaps one enterprise, I know some of the egg-layer hybrids and some of the meat chickens are (not a breed because they are known to be hybrids from the get go) - patented or proprietary, if that breed wasn't available to the general public to raise...would it even be considered as a breed, or would the Cotswald, and the individual who claims to have the only 'real' CLs be considered 'project birds'.... In other words, does there have to be a group of people who own a breed for it to be considered a breed.  (I guess for APA acceptance it is at least 5-breeders - but they could also all be affiliated).  Sorry if it is a lame question, but I'm curious. Thanks!

Marek's:http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/mareks-disease-fact-site

BYC page:  http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/chickats-page  

BYC blog of sorts  http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/jottings-ii

 

"Was dich nicht umwirft, macht dich starker"   "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger."-Friedrich Nietzsche 

Reply

Marek's:http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/mareks-disease-fact-site

BYC page:  http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/chickats-page  

BYC blog of sorts  http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/jottings-ii

 

"Was dich nicht umwirft, macht dich starker"   "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger."-Friedrich Nietzsche 

Reply
post #8738 of 11104
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicKat View Post
 

Thanks Walt. 

 

As I understand it, there is a single individual over there who calls himself the CreamLegbarClub.UK ( I think he has no members in the Club) - I think he attempted to borrow some things from the USA's Club without permission.  Have I heard a rumor that he wanted to patent the CL and that no one in the world except himself had 'real' CLs.    

 

And there is a group called the Cotswold Legbar that over the years even just since I have been involved with the breed changed their stock from random chickens with varied markings - a bit like a land-race such as the Swedish Flower Hens - where all were different, some were crested some weren't -- eggs of all colors - a bit like USA Easter Eggers -- to now have a flock that looks very much like Cream Legbars - but still doesn't have consistent blue eggs...and I hear now they claim that Cotswalds are autosexing, and they are the only source..they will sell pullets at a very high price from what I hear, but never a male, and never hatching eggs.    By mixing enough Cream Legbar blood into their Cotswalds -- they probably could achieve autosexing if they were able to establish Duckwing + barring --- It does lend to a lot of confusing tales floating around ... (or confusing tails). 

 

This could also be part of the lore surrounding the breed as well. 

:th

 

So a good question for you, Walt, if there is a breed of chicken that is owned by only one individual, or perhaps one enterprise, I know some of the egg-layer hybrids and some of the meat chickens are (not a breed because they are known to be hybrids from the get go) - patented or proprietary, if that breed wasn't available to the general public to raise...would it even be considered as a breed, or would the Cotswald, and the individual who claims to have the only 'real' CLs be considered 'project birds'.... In other words, does there have to be a group of people who own a breed for it to be considered a breed.  (I guess for APA acceptance it is at least 5-breeders - but they could also all be affiliated).  Sorry if it is a lame question, but I'm curious. Thanks!


The British Poultry Club has always been the guardian of the British Standards, but the Standards themselves are delineated by the specialist breed CLUBS. I don't know if an individual can propose breed Standards in Great Britain. Probably not. I am meeting British people that I know at the show, so I should be able to find out who the real players are.

 

Walt

post #8739 of 11104
post #8740 of 11104
Quote:
Originally Posted by TherryChicken View Post


Pretty boy!

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