A Heritage of Perfection: Standard-bred Large Fowl

[Ifish]

Hello. I'm new to the site, but not new to poultry. I am new to Heritage breeds and breeding. I have spent a few weeks now reading, researching breeds, and trying to locate good stock to start a small flock. I have read this entire thread, and many other pages and posts from others. Once the ground thaws here in SC PA I plan on building my main coop which is going to be 10'x10', some breeding pens in the barn, and some small hoop style coops for separating cockerels and pullets. I still have some questions and am in need of some guidance.

This all started when my daughter (6yo) asked if we could get some new chickens that she could show at the Fair. She is very interested in animal husbandry and does well with our Angus and Bohers. So I thought it over and realized what a wonderful hobby this could be for her and I. I quickly found out that the hatchery type chicks most likely would not be the place to start and I needed to find some breeders. Haven't found much, and the few I talked to at the Farm Show in Harrisburg, have not gotten back to me. Whitmore Farm is supposed to have some nice Delawares and is a short drive south of me. So that may be the way we go, but it seems shipping chicks of better than Hatchery Quality seems pretty common.

First thing we are going to do is join the APA and get our SOP to read over.

Get the coops and pens built.

Find some good chicks before it gets too late.

Start going to all the close poultry shows.


I don't want to set us up for failure or expect too much from what we will have. Is it possible to get meat and eggs and breed good birds from a small flock? Say 25, plus a few more in the spring? While breeding toward the SOP will be the main goal in the breeding and showing end, we still want that Farm Flock atmosphere here on the new farm.

Is there a breed/line that would be better for a beginner? I originally wanted to go with the rarer birds to help preserve them, but now I'm thinking it might be better to go with a breed that has a wider gene pool and more breeders to network with, at least for our first few years of learning. Part of the fun and intrigue for starting this hobby is the history and preservation of a breed, as well as spending quality time with my daughter.

How do you juggle your time between the flock and home/work? How much time each day do dedicate to your flock? It seems that this becomes more than just a hobby for people and it becomes a lifestyle. I see nothing wrong with that at all, I just cannot be that dedicated at this point in life. The main local poultry shows we could attend, but traveling all over just isn't in the cards.

Breeds that we are interested in:

Red Dorking
Partridge Rock
Dominique
Delaware
Light Sussex



I think I have read so much in such a short amount of time I just haven't been able to digest it all yet, and probably missed a thing or two.

Thanks for your time, Rob

 

[ocap]

Hello. I'm new to the site, but not new to poultry. I am new to Heritage breeds and breeding. I have spent a few weeks now reading, researching breeds, and trying to locate good stock to start a small flock. I have read this entire thread, and many other pages and posts from others. Once the ground thaws here in SC PA I plan on building my main coop which is going to be 10'x10', some breeding pens in the barn, and some small hoop style coops for separating cockerels and pullets. I still have some questions and am in need of some guidance.

This all started when my daughter (6yo) asked if we could get some new chickens that she could show at the Fair. She is very interested in animal husbandry and does well with our Angus and Bohers. So I thought it over and realized what a wonderful hobby this could be for her and I. I quickly found out that the hatchery type chicks most likely would not be the place to start and I needed to find some breeders. Haven't found much, and the few I talked to at the Farm Show in Harrisburg, have not gotten back to me. Whitmore Farm is supposed to have some nice Delawares and is a short drive south of me. So that may be the way we go, but it seems shipping chicks of better than Hatchery Quality seems pretty common.

First thing we are going to do is join the APA and get our SOP to read over.

Get the coops and pens built.

Find some good chicks before it gets too late.

Start going to all the close poultry shows.


I don't want to set us up for failure or expect too much from what we will have. Is it possible to get meat and eggs and breed good birds from a small flock? Say 25, plus a few more in the spring? While breeding toward the SOP will be the main goal in the breeding and showing end, we still want that Farm Flock atmosphere here on the new farm.

Is there a breed/line that would be better for a beginner? I originally wanted to go with the rarer birds to help preserve them, but now I'm thinking it might be better to go with a breed that has a wider gene pool and more breeders to network with, at least for our first few years of learning. Part of the fun and intrigue for starting this hobby is the history and preservation of a breed, as well as spending quality time with my daughter.

How do you juggle your time between the flock and home/work? How much time each day do dedicate to your flock? It seems that this becomes more than just a hobby for people and it becomes a lifestyle. I see nothing wrong with that at all, I just cannot be that dedicated at this point in life. The main local poultry shows we could attend, but traveling all over just isn't in the cards.

Breeds that we are interested in:

Red Dorking
Partridge Rock
Dominique
Delaware
Light Sussex



I think I have read so much in such a short amount of time I just haven't been able to digest it all yet, and probably missed a thing or two.

Thanks for your time, Rob

I can help in a couple of areas, the other questions are for other members.

Is it possible to get meat and eggs and breed good birds from a small flock? Yes, for me I can get more meat and eggs than I can use. Eggs in the spring and summer, meat fills the freezer in the fall, reducing winter work.


How do you juggle your time between the flock and home/work? For me, the better I have my system set up for cold weather the less time it takes. Electrical system and water heaters protected from the precipitation. Food is also ruined with precipitation. If food and water can be solved then the morning chore is only making sure the systems are not empty. Start small, only two trios of one breed, you can get 40-50 chicks in the spring from four hens. See how that many chickens fill up the amount of time you have.

Is there a breed/line that would be better for a beginner? I know nothing about the breeds you have selected. Personal opinion is that the rare breeds are rare for a reason, be cautious, why has this breed been forgotten? What is wrong with them? My breed of choice is pleasing to my eye, I enjoy looking at them, I do not enjoy killing them for the freezer but I do it anyway.

Hatchery birds give you time to learn how to keep chickens alive and give you lots of eggs so don't rule them out completely but .... there are a lot of great breeders in PA and the surrounding states.

I found my birds (bred to the Standard) by contacting the judges listed in the poultry press.

John

 

[Ifish]

Thank you for the info.

I should have added that my wife and I had a small egg production business for almost 10 years. It was more hobby then business, I don't think we made much more than the cost of feed back. So we are familiar with chickens, though they were hybrid layers from local feed store. We rarely ever hatched chicks and would just buy more in the spring. They were easy. Clean coop here and there, feed, water, and collect eggs, and close up coop each night. Took maybe 20 mins of our time.

I was thinking that breeding/raising good heritage fowl would be a lot more involved and time consuming. So while it seems it will take more time, and I am ok with that, just not wanting it to become a second job where I have to spend multiple hours everyday, or can't have a friend take care of feeding and watering if we are out of town.

 

[capayvalleychick]

This all started when my daughter (6yo) asked if we could get some new chickens that she could show at the Fair. She is very interested in animal husbandry and does well with our Angus and Bohers. So I thought it over and realized what a wonderful hobby this could be for her and I. I quickly found out that the hatchery type chicks most likely would not be the place to start and I needed to find some breeders. Haven't found much, and the few I talked to at the Farm Show in Harrisburg, have not gotten back to me. Whitmore Farm is supposed to have some nice Delawares and is a short drive south of me. So that may be the way we go, but it seems shipping chicks of better than Hatchery Quality seems pretty common.

First thing we are going to do is join the APA and get our SOP to read over.

Get the coops and pens built.

Find some good chicks before it gets too late.

Start going to all the close poultry shows.

Is it possible to get meat and eggs and breed good birds from a small flock? Say 25, plus a few more in the spring? While breeding toward the SOP will be the main goal in the breeding and showing end, we still want that Farm Flock atmosphere here on the new farm.

Is there a breed/line that would be better for a beginner? I originally wanted to go with the rarer birds to help preserve them, but now I'm thinking it might be better to go with a breed that has a wider gene pool and more breeders to network with, at least for our first few years of learning. Part of the fun and intrigue for starting this hobby is the history and preservation of a breed, as well as spending quality time with my daughter.

How do you juggle your time between the flock and home/work? How much time each day do dedicate to your flock? It seems that this becomes more than just a hobby for people and it becomes a lifestyle. I see nothing wrong with that at all, I just cannot be that dedicated at this point in life. The main local poultry shows we could attend, but traveling all over just isn't in the cards.

Breeds that we are interested in:

Red Dorking
Partridge Rock
Dominique
Delaware
Light Sussex



I think I have read so much in such a short amount of time I just haven't been able to digest it all yet, and probably missed a thing or two.

Thanks for your time, Rob

Yes, it's possible to get meat and eggs and breed good birds from a small flock. Depending on the quality of the birds, you may not get as much meat as you need. Old breeds of poultry are not going to produce the same sort of carcass as modern meat breeds, either. Egg production will depend on whether the individual strain has been selected for egg production, but that many birds will keep you with plenty of eggs.
You want to start out with the best stock possible. The more work that a breed needs, the more you will have to hatch each year to improve them. I'm familiar with Delawares and Silver Dorkings. Those need a minimum of 100 hatched each year to get a few good enough for breeding.

I hope that someone closer to you will speak up and recommend a breed/line that may be a good choice for you. I'm going to say that the Delaware is not a good choice for a beginner and not a good choice if you want to compete. I breed Delawares. I'm happy with their meat & egg qualities but they need a lot of years of work before they will meet the Standard. They are also very frustrating to work with, since the pattern is so different in the males & females. Silver Dorkings would be the same but you may be able to find Reds that are in better shape. I think they still might be too difficult for a child beginner.

I'm on the farm full time with a husband who supports me. Breeding chickens didn't take much time at first. Now, trying to breed them and improve them to standard is taking a lot more time. If you don't have someone to help out, it limits your freedom to travel etc.

I hope someone can help you with a breed/line that will work for you.

 

[Regin]

Buckeyes or Dominiques would be good for a child and or beginner. Particularly Lay line Buckeyes for productivity and demeanor.

One thing to be careful of around a child is cockerels with attitude!

 

[Ifish]

Thanks again all.

Whole reason we did away with our chickens a little over 4 years ago is because my wife was collecting eggs and our daughter (2yo at the time) wanted to help. She ran out in her diaper and a cockerel flogged her a couple times before my wife could get to her. She was bleeding from her belly as my wife got to her, and the bird came at both of them. Wife beat it with a shovel and it became catfish bait. All chickens were gone within the week after that. Other than putting some dominate cocks in their place over the years, that is the only issue we have had. She is older now and strong enough to handle a mean cockerel if she has to. I certainly do not want to put her in that position though.

So culling the cocks for attitude will be a priority. Just happy that my daughter has put that behind her and has realized it is just something that happens. So I expect to be dealing with the cocks, while she deals with pullets and hens. If we end up with a nice cock that she can handle, I will bet that she will dive right in.

Looking to get her into a Cloverbud group, then 4h when she hits proper age.

 

[bnjrob]

I don't want to set us up for failure or expect too much from what we will have. Is it possible to get meat and eggs and breed good birds from a small flock? Say 25, plus a few more in the spring? While breeding toward the SOP will be the main goal in the breeding and showing end, we still want that Farm Flock atmosphere here on the new farm.

As far as getting enough meat to completely meet your needs, much depends on how much chicken meat you eat and how many people will be eating it, as well as how many birds you are planning on hatching, what type of chickens you'll be keeping, and how many you can keep at one time.

Example - we only have two people to feed, but chicken is our main meat source, and we do not eat pork, so we use more poultry meat than most folks. We breed large fowl, dual purpose Javas, so they do have meat on them, but we have not hatched in large enough numbers to meet our needs entirely. However now that we have more of this rare breed on the ground, we are looking at putting more emphasis on production, which means we'll be slaughtering males sooner, so we can hatch more birds, but not have to grow all of them out to maturity (1 year or older), and that should help us be able to supply more of our own meat without being too taxing on space or feed. It's a matter of seeing what your needs are and then working toward the goal as you go along further in your chicken keeping/breeding.

Is there a breed/line that would be better for a beginner? I originally wanted to go with the rarer birds to help preserve them, but now I'm thinking it might be better to go with a breed that has a wider gene pool and more breeders to network with, at least for our first few years of learning. Part of the fun and intrigue for starting this hobby is the history and preservation of a breed, as well as spending quality time with my daughter.

Everybody is going to tell you something different. You just have to choose one that you like and see how it goes. We chose rare birds because we want to help with conservation. Is it is pain in the butt that they cannot be readily replaced if something happens to them? Yes. Is there a large pool of serious breeders of our breed to talk to? No, I've had to do a good bit of historical research to learn about our breed. But to us they are worth it because we like the birds so much and they are meeting our expectations and conservation is a higher priority with us than being able to chat with a lot of other folks about the birds. When you find the birds that you like, then you'll find yourself willing to put up with certain inconveniences - it's all about what your priorities and expectations are.

I saw the suggestion to find out why birds have become rare. before you choose a breed While I agree with this somewhat, I also have seen where some birds, like the breed we have, became rare without good reason. From my historical research, our breed actually became rare among *show people* more than they did common farmers who were raising them. They are able to produce and were highly thought of for both meat and egg production. So their scarcity got worse after the commercialization of poultry, simply because none of the old breeds could compete when it came to production, and people stopped raising chickens for food, while the poultry fanciers had their favorites for showing, based on things that did not pertain to production. So when you're talking about old breeds that weren't kept by show people - it doesn't mean that the birds were defective, it means that show people had their favorites and the commercialization of poultry was what really *did in* a lot of birds that weren't necessarily bad, just weren't flashy enough for show people to want to keep. Which isn't much different than it is today where the flashy breeds tend to have larger fan bases than mono-color birds or birds with simple color patterns or conformation. I've heard theories of why our breed became rare, but it seems most of that is based on gossip rather than fact. So don't let the scarcity of a breed scare you away if you really like the one that you choose.

How do you juggle your time between the flock and home/work? How much time each day do dedicate to your flock? It seems that this becomes more than just a hobby for people and it becomes a lifestyle. I see nothing wrong with that at all, I just cannot be that dedicated at this point in life. The main local poultry shows we could attend, but traveling all over just isn't in the cards.

Chickens dont' have to take up too much time if you set things up right. The biggest problem I have found, is when you try to be too cheap. If you try to be too cheap, then you're setting yourself up for failure and having a lot of extra work to do.

I've constantly got people telling me that we should not spend so much money on building pens and coops, yet those are the same people that wind up with predators ripping through their chicken wire and scrap-built coops, decimating their flocks, and having to frequently rebuild coops that are damaged in a storm. We've had predators try to get into our pens, we've found teeth marks, bent wire, and hair of raccoons and skunks stuck in the wire, but none of them have been successful and the only chicken we have lost to a predator was free ranging. But we spent extra money to get good wire, good lumber, etc. to make them sturdy enough to withstand use and abuse. If you have to redo something, or replace dead chickens, you haven't saved money, you've wasted money and time.

Think things through before doing them. You've already kept chickens and you already have an idea of what works/doesn't work for you.

If you set things up right in the beginning, most day to day care can take as little as 15-30 minutes a day. Extremes of weather make more work of course. And then you'll have the times that you are examining your birds to determine who gets eaten and who stays to become breeders, which can take time, but that isn't an every day occurrence.

Currently we do not show. There are only a couple of poultry shows near us and even then taking the time out to drive to those cities when we have other animals at home to care for and other things going on, is not always possible. And honestly, we really don't care about showing. But we do still breed to the SOP because it is important to us. You don't have to exhibit birds to work on a standard-bred flock. Fortunately the internet lets people connect easier and going to shows is not an absolute necessity.

Breeds that we are interested in:

Red Dorking
Partridge Rock
Dominique
Delaware
Light Sussex


The breeds you mention are not ones that I am intimately familiar with, although I do know a bit about Plymouth Rocks because our breed was used to make the Rocks and they are still somewhat similar to Javas. As far as production goes, they have the ability to be good producers, but you have to remember that husbandry and breeding choices play a large part in the production capability in any breed that you keep.

Even the APA mentions on their website that most show birds are not as productive. Well, that's what happens when people breed mostly for appearance, with little regard for production. But you can improve their appearance faster if you only concentrate on that either production or appearance - which is probably why many people don't pay as much mind to production, especially since people can go to the grocery store if they need meat or eggs. For my husband and me, it is important to breed to the SOP so that our Javas look like Javas, but we also want them to be productive farm birds. Which means it is much slower in getting improvement because we're asking for excellence in so many areas at once. But it can be done and we have seen improvements in our flock in the few years we have been seriously breeding.

Don't forget that if you're looking at *heritage* birds, they aren't going to be as productive as hatchery birds with egg laying. But they can still provide you with plenty of eggs. Even when we just had a handful of laying hens that laid every other day to every few days, it was way more eggs than what we needed to feed ourselves.

Also, dual purpose birds are not going to be as productive with laying as a breed meant for egg laying, and they are not going to provide as much meat as a strictly meat bird will. So you'll have to adjust your expectations accordingly.

Since you're wanting to show, the more colors/patterns that are on the bird, the more headache it will be to breed them. It's hard enough sometimes to breed to the SOP as far as characteristics that don't relate to color, but throw in the extra color issues, and you're looking at more work, more decisions for breeding, and going even more slowly with making improvements in your birds. The simpler the color pattern, the less work you'll have to do.

 

[Ifish]

Thank you for the reply. It really helped clear up some of the stuff I have been thinking about.

Basically you are doing what I want to do. I want birds that will produce and fit the standard. Showing the birds is a part of the project, but It never crossed my mind to show birds that didn't produce. So production is important just as the SOP is.

I do not expect our small flock to meet our chicken meat needs. Just supplement here and there. Though I sorta expect enough eggs for us and family from the amount of birds. I am an avid upland bird hunter. So I am used to a scrawny carcass and can adjust to a dual purpose pretty easy. Especially when it comes to the amount of flavor they have. Even our red hybrids tasted better than a store bought Cornish X.

As for showing; if we win great, if not, we gave it our best and learned a lot. Productivity can't really be judge in the poultry competitions as far as I know. So looks would be important, and a stable color pattern would be easier. All white just doesn't look right to me and black pin feathers look strange on a carcass. I do not mean that in a bad way, it's just not for us. From what I read Dominique's are fairly stable with their barring. You bring up a good point here and it's something I need to look into and weigh on.

 

[Zanna]

Thank you for the reply. It really helped clear up some of the stuff I have been thinking about.

Basically you are doing what I want to do. I want birds that will produce and fit the standard. Showing the birds is a part of the project, but It never crossed my mind to show birds that didn't produce. So production is important just as the SOP is.

I do not expect our small flock to meet our chicken meat needs. Just supplement here and there. Though I sorta expect enough eggs for us and family from the amount of birds. I am an avid upland bird hunter. So I am used to a scrawny carcass and can adjust to a dual purpose pretty easy. Especially when it comes to the amount of flavor they have. Even our red hybrids tasted better than a store bought Cornish X.

As for showing; if we win great, if not, we gave it our best and learned a lot. Productivity can't really be judge in the poultry competitions as far as I know. So looks would be important, and a stable color pattern would be easier. All white just doesn't look right to me and black pin feathers look strange on a carcass. I do not mean that in a bad way, it's just not for us. From what I read Dominique's are fairly stable with their barring. You bring up a good point here and it's something I need to look into and weigh on.

Everyone has their favorite breeds. I was going to suggest the possibility of White Rocks till I saw your post Look into New Hampshires to see if they interest you. Sounds like they would fit all of your needs if you get the right line (that goes for most any breed). Hatchery birds are not the same as private breeder birds and depending on the breeder, different priorities are chosen with their line(s).

 

[fowlman01]

New Hampshires from a breeder of exhibition birds would be a good fit. The females lay early and the males grow faster than most breeds.

Walt