Blue Copper and Splash Copper Marans Discussion

[South OH Chicks]

Chooks man. I showed a pic of this chick when it was a week old. The chick was hatched on September 10th. I believe this to be a cockrel. This is Leroy.

 

[harmesonfarm]

I agree, cockerel @South OH Chicks

 

[harmesonfarm]

What I presented to you came from scientific journals and books that are scientific conclusions about the genes mentioned.

I will present the information to you.

A. Lets deal with melanotic first. Melanotic (Ml*Ml) is not a part of the genotype of the black copper marans. If the black copper marans carried melanotic, the males and females would not have the copper color in their hackles. Melanotic is a eumelanin (black pigment) intensifier that replaces the red pigments in the hackles with black pigments.

1. This is a quote from Poultry Breeding and Genetics, R. D. Crawford , page 118 - R.J.Smith was the author of the section dealing with plumage color in chickens.

"Ml is an incompletely dominant autosomal mutation that extends eumelanin into the normally red areas of pyle-zoned fowl, while having little effect on chick down color"

eumelanin is black pigment pyle-zone refers to the red in the neck hackles, saddle hackles and back of a chicken

2. Cote, R S, 1976, A genetic analysis of self-black plumage color in the domestic fowl, Master's thesis, University of Massachusetts

self black refers to a bird being a solid black color

In this study, he determined the genetic make up of 10 different birds (7 different breeds 9 different varieties) that were birchen or extended black at the E locus. One of the birds was birchen (like in birchen old english game plumage color).He discovered that 8 out of the 10 birds carried melanotic, one of the black birds did not carry melanotic, and the birchen bird did not carry melanotic. This study would indicate that most totally black birds carry melanotic.

3, Melanotic: Key to a Phenotypic Enigma in the Fowl, J Hered (1971) 62 (4): 215-219 Moore and Smyth are the authors

In this paper, Smyth does many crosses with chickens that have different E locus alleles- he found that melanotic is the key to making a black bird and to produce a black bird the bird had to have two melanotic genes.

4. Bantam Chickens by Fred P Jeffery

In his book page 153 he indicates all solid black birds that have yellow or white shanks carry melanotic


B. There is no recessive black allele. Punnett misinterpreted his findings. The recessive black gene is actually heterozygous melanotic on certain E locus backgrounds

In the paper Melanotic: Key to a Phenotypic Enigma in the Fowl, the paper discusses the plausibility of there being a recessive black gene in chickens. The authors of the paper wrote the following quote" The phenotypic descriptions and accompanying photographs strongly suggest that recessive black is the same mutation as Ml."


C. The research by Brumbaugh and Hollander, and that by Smyth and Somes would disagree with what is floating around the internet. Research by scientists reveals that the mahogany gene is a columbian-like restrictor removing black pigment from certain areas of the chicken's body. In the case of males, it removes some black from the breast of the male. In some cases , the breast will appear to be spangled.

The following is a quote from Smyth: GENETIC CONTROL OF MELANIN PIGMENTATION IN THE FOWL

"The major effect of Mh on the adult male is to restrict black from the base of the pennaceous part of the breast feathers. The amount of black left distally is less in homozygotes than In heterozygotes, some of the breasts of homozygotes resembling the secondary pattern, spangling."

"Several genes have been isolated that further restrict the black distribution associated with the unmodified E--alleles, primarily in the direction of a Columbian-like pattern. These include Columbian (Co),mahogany (Mh) , dark brown (Db)and dilute (Di). In addition there appears to be unidentified modifying genes such as those proposed by Somes and Smyth (1966) which tend to behave as a polygenic complex. Various genotypic combinations of the above can account for the many modified phenotypes ranging from a wild type male with slight red tipping on its black breast to a phenotypically non-black Buff Orpington."

"A number of genes appear to act as eumelanin inhibitors and modify the plumage toward the Columbian pattern. These are particularly effective against the black breast of wild type-patterned males, and reduce general body eumelanin In non-E females. Three such mutations that have been well established Include Columbian (Co),dark brown (Db) and mahogany (Mh). It would appear that there are other as yet unidentified genes in this category, possibly even a few with major effects. "

In addition to reducing the amount of black in the males breast, the mahogany gene would cause the red color of the female to be a darker red and remove some of the black from the body of the female.

"Mahogany's effect on primary pattern in the female is to restrict generally the amount of eumelanin in the plumage, particularly on the breast back and the wing bows and fronts. In the presence of sex-linked gold (s+), the phaeomelanin is dark red or mahogany In color. In the +e female the salmon breast also becomes dark red in color.

http://www.bantamclub.com/PDF/Smyth.pdf`

D. The mi gene is no longer used to describe a phenotypic expression. mi has been replaced by the Db or the dark brown gene.

Smyth, J.R., Jr and G.W. Malone, (1979). Evidence that plumage color genes mi and Db are identical. Poultry Sci. 58:1108-1109 (Abstract).

I have presented enough information that supports my position.

Interesting on your perspective, although I must say, either you and chooks man are saying the same thing (but in different ways), or you are interpreting the scientific research differently then me.

Looking at the sources and especially http://www.bantamclub.com/PDF/Smyth.pdf`, I find that this paper actually supports what we are saying, in regards to, the Mh and MI.

I still do believe though that the Marans (at least the Black Coppers Specifically) contain MI as well as Mh. The MI balances out the Mh and the Mh effects the s+, is my understanding.

Here is a quote from the Marans of America Club. http://www.maransofamericaclub.com/black-copper-genetics.html

"The genome of the Brown-Red is as stated based on the Birchen ER allele. Without any modifying genes the cock would be a standard Black breasted Red, the hen black with gold in the hackle, and gold lacing on the breast feathers. So as Copper is required the gold s+ gene must be present. Gold will not give us the required Copper colour so the colour depth is increased by the addition of Mahogany, Mh. This genome ER/ER s+/s+ Mh/Mh would still allow too much expression of copper on both the cock and hen, so the black plumage is strengthened by the addition of the melaniser Ml, other recessive melanisers may also be present. Adding the required Dermal Inhibitor, feather shank genes gives for the cock a genome of

ER/ER s+/s+ Ml/Ml Mh/Mh Id/Id W/W Pti-1/Pti-1

and for the hen:

ER/ER s+/- Ml/Ml Mh/Mh Id/- W/W Pti-1/Pti-1."

(I am following the french standard and not the dutch, as the Marans are a french breed to begin with) I have also seen this genome written with a w+/w+...not sure which would be considered "right" here. Maybe you or chooks man will know and comment.

Perhaps, because different breeds have different locus and allele formations, each breed reacts differently with dominant and recessive genes due to their genetic make up? There are so many variations in genetic possibilities... to draw conclusive specifics based individually on alleles is not accurate unless you are modelling after a known genome cause and effect?

Every source that I have looked at for Black Copper Marans, require this to be their genome. When one follows this genetic genome, the results are the black coppers, to my knowledge. These all interact together in a specific form to create that specific breed.

I find MI and Mh are reacted differently with E/E vs. ER/ER, correct? as ER/ER is located on the same locus, (correct?) is it possible, it is the dominant and not E/E resulting in different effects taking place?

From the same reading: http://www.bantamclub.com/PDF/Smyth.pdf`


"After summarizing some of our own recent work at the University of Massachusetts, it was surprising to observe the number of different genetic routes to identical, or nearly identical, phenotypes. Furthermore, many relationships between alleles and non-alleles appear to be only as consistent as the specific genetic background on which they are observed. We have here then a physiological system that is relatively unaffected by environmental components and controlled by a number of identifiable, qualitatively inherited genes plus polygenic modifying complexes. Various interactions between these culminate in the final phenotype. Therefore, one could consider plumage colour a polygenic trait and a simplified genetic model for other quantitatively inherited traits."

"Melanocytes of the fowl can produce either eumelanin (black) or pheomelanin (buff, red or brown), although the latter is found only in the feathers. These
pigments differ biochemically, although they share the same synthetic pathway through the formation of dopa quinone. In addition, each type of pigment is attached to a specific protein matrix that determines the different melanosome sizes and shapes (Brumbaugh, 1968). Each basic pigment can be modified by genetic factors, e.g., black to blue eumelanin by alteration of the structure of the premelanosome." (I am figuring this to be the describing the effect of BI for blue coppers)
"The many phenotypic variations in pheomelanin are also the result of mutational changes in melanosome concentration and distribution. The genetic bases for these may be polygenic or the result of individual genes such as silver (S) or cream (ig)."

"Whether a melanocyte will produce eumelanin or pheomelanln depends on its own genotype, as well as its cytoenvironment. Brumbaugh (1967) has shown by embryonic grafting experiments that the alleles at the E-Iocus of the fowl are autonomous, yet with the exception of the most dominant E-allele the decision to make black or red melanin depends on the local tissue environment. Some obvious environmental differences affecting melanocytes at the individual bird level are sex and feather trait specific. Brumbaugh has suggested that the interaction between the genotype and its environment takes place in the zone of differentiation of the developing feather. He believes that the key environmental effect is related to feather growth rate with rapid movement of melanoblasts through this zone favouring eumelanin synthesis."

"Adult males: There are only three basic adult male phenotypes with two of these, E and ER showing considerable variation. E results in the greatest extension of black pigment, while the wild type male is non-solid black on the head, hackle, saddle, wing bow and wing bay, With the exception of E and ER, all of the other E-alleles result in a wild type adult male pattern.
The ER allele has been proposed to have an intermediate phenotype, resembling e+ , but having black flight feathers (wing bays)."

"The results of this study proved to be very interesting, and again demonstrated the complexities of the many different genetic interactions that can result in a
single phenotype (Cote, 1976). With the exception of the henny feathered cross, no FI or backcross males heterozygous for E had solid black plumage. Phenotyplcally these varied from dark birchen to standard birchen in pattern. Of the nine original black males only six were found to be homozygous for E. Backcross segregation data indicated that all of these carried black intensifiers including melanotic (MI.),but some were non-laced in the repulsion configuration_ Ml-+l.g+"
...

I do find that they are supporting the genetic code, for which Marans are used, in their paper. There is some conflicting information in there as well regarding this, but as I stated before, perhaps this is due to different chromosome structures and locus and allele relationships?

Perhaps if we look at the alleles individually, the same story (as in breed genomes / chromosomes) is not told?
Then again, I am very new to this...perhaps I am understanding this paper as a beginner, not someone who is versed in genetics.

I do love this though, thank you so much for bringing this to my attention and your willingness to explain your views and points. I am finding this to be a very educational experience and find it has helped me (I think) grasp a little more about genetics (and also realize how much deeper scientifically it goes).

 

[Chooks man]

Melanotic allele: Ml (1971):

First described by Moore and Smyth (1971), after extracting it from a randombreeding recessive white population previously described by Jeffrey (1947). Ml is incompletely dominant autosomal mutation that extends eumelanin into the normally red areas of pyle-zoned fowl, while having little effect on the chick down colour. Heterozygotes on wild-type (e+) or brown (eb) backgrounds are distinctly darker, particularly in the hackle and head; however, Ml/ml+ has little effect on eWh/eWh females. Homozygotes approach self blackness, but the salmon pigment of the wildtype and wheaten females remain evident.

• • Ml found in the Quail pattern (Campo and Oronzco, 1986)
• • The Melanotic gene by itself does not make a wild-type bird black.

Ml (Melanotic) is sex influenced, autosomal incompletely dominant gene. This means that heterozygote hens with only one dose of the black enhancer (Ml/ml+) show very little pheomelanin (gold or silver) on ER (birchen) base (ie acts like a dominant gene). Whereas, heterozygote roosters with only one dose of Ml (Ml/ml+) show more gold on the hackles, wing bows, etc, when ER (i.e, acts like an incompletely dominant gene). Ml homozygous (Ml/Ml) & on its own doesn't cover all pheomelanin areas on e+ & ER male birds (although covers a lot), & doesn't cover salmon areas of e+ (eg, as in Brassy Backs) & eWh hens. Therefore, other eumelanin enhancers are needed to change the gold/silver areas to black (eumelanin). Ml isn't expressed in day-old chick down, unless in combination with other mutations, eg eWh Co Ml produces a heavily melanised chick down - research by Campo & Oronzco - Melanised Prat. Campo & Oronzco (1986) (and Campo, 1991) also noted that two doses of Ml is needed to produce the dark chick down, & quail pattern in adult eWh Co birds.
Unsuccessful efforts to determine the genetic basis for certain “recessive black” lines (Punnett, 1957, Smyth, 1976) suggest the existence of more than one eumelanin intensifying mutation.
References:
Crawford, R.D (ed.)(1990). Poultry Breeding and Genetics. Elsevier, Amsterdam.
Campo, J.L. and Orozco, F. (1986) Genetic basis of the melanotic Prat phenotype. British Poultry Science. 27:361-367.
Campo, J.L. (1991) Use of the sex-linked barring (B) gene for chick sexing on an eumelanotic columbian background. Poultry Science. 1991 Jul;70(7):1469-73.
Jeffrey, F.P. (1947). Plumage color genes in White Plymouth Rocks and White Wyandottes. Poultry Sci. 26:526-528.
Moore, J.W. and Smyth, J.R. (1971). Melanotic, key to a phenotypic enigma of the fowl. J.Hered. 62:214-219.

 

[Chooks man]

Chooks man

The RED SHOULDER an d SPECKED BREAST ae not caused by the Mahogany .it is caused by the AUTOSSOMAL RED ( BCM , Wheaten Marrans Salmon marans )

Does the above statement say that the salmon breast in silver salmons and golden salmons is caused by autosomal red,and that the wheaten color in wheaten marans is due to autosomal red.


the Birchen Marans or the Silver family like silver salmon and silver wheaten the Autossomal Red become the Autossoml White/Silver .

In the above statement are you posting that autosomal red is not expressed in birds that carry the silver allele.


Mahogany have no exact marking on the body but does help in enhancing the Gold marking and the sheen of the black .

Does the above statement say that mahogany is not a restrictor and does not effect the black on the body of the male or female. In other words, the mahogany gene does not remove black from the body of the male or female.


if the Black copper have no Melanin ,than they should have Pink shank like the other marans varieties because of the presence of Di Dermal inhibitor .

Does the above statement say that I posted that the black copper marans does not have melanin in its shanks and feet.

you lost me here my friend .

my English is backyard chooks English . does mean what I said .

I did not said the Mahogany is not restrictor
I did not say ,you said the Black copper marans does not have melanin in its shanks and feet .

I said you don t know the marans genome . I do not care about Crowford and Smith and any body else . I have my own group of geneticist working me .

Can you tell me please ,where is the MI genes from the Langsham original crossing to the marans is going . and why all around the world the black copper marans breeders have a problem with most of the progeny is black . there is more black chooks from a black copper than a black copper them selves .

My believe the MI has to do with it .
I m working on it my self with my people to find out .5000 marans chicks expected to hit the ground this season . so we ll have a lot data to deal with by the end of the year.

chook man

 

[Wappoke]

Can you tell me please ,where is the MI genes from the Langsham original crossing to the marans is going . and why all around the world the black copper marans breeders have a problem with most of the progeny is black . there is more black chooks from a black copper than a black copper them selves .


The problem is exactly what I have been saying. If a Marans has one melanotic gene then the bird will approach a normal birchen primary color pattern- if the bird inherits two melanotic genes then the bird will be black or almost black. The melanotic gene is incompletely dominant. That is what I have been trying to tell you. If you want a bird to breed true ( only produce black coppers), the melanotic gene should not be a part of the birds genotype. It would be for the black marans but not the black copper.

The Marans breed would also have the extended black gene in the population. Birds that are black can be extended black at the E locus or Birchen at the E locus. I have had black birds that were brown at the extension locus. Sometimes extended black birds will look like birchen birds especially if they are extended black and birchen at the E locus.

The reason you are getting the black birds is because of the melanotic and extended black genes are causing the black birds.

Also this is my email address:[email protected]

Have the geneticists you are working with send me an email. I would love to discuss some things with them.



Also- I do know the Marans breed. I have worked with Marans breeders to improve their black coppers and produce new varieties.

 

[Wappoke]

Harmesonfarm


Perhaps, because different breeds have different locus and allele formations, each breed reacts differently with dominant and recessive genes due to their genetic make up? There are so many variations in genetic possibilities... to draw conclusive specifics based individually on alleles is not accurate unless you are modelling after a known genome cause and effect?

The research that I posted does draw specific conclusions concerning what a gene does. That is what scientists do with their research. The research takes in all the possibilities and then draws a conclusion based upon what the data indicates. They will eliminate all the genes that can cause an effect on a bird- through specific breeding strategies they eliminate genes and what is left is the effect of the gene in question.

The mahogany gene is classified it as a restrictor. A restrictor removes black from the body of a bird ( in males black is removed from the breast). The male black copper is not restricted and has a black breast, therefore the black copper does not carry mahogany. It is that simple.



Each breed has a specific genotype that is specific to that breed.

Rhode Island red is light wheaten (dominant wheaten), columbian restricted, carries the gold allele and carries mahogany. They have yellow skin alleles and also carry dermal melanin inhibitor. They have single comb alleles at the rose comb, pea comb and duplex comb loci. They also carry other genes but I will not list them.

If I take the same bird and add two mottling genes, remove the yellow skin alleles and replace them with the white skin alleles- guess what I have a speckled sussex

many different breeds have the exact same genes but all it takes is a few different genes to make a completely different breed or variety.

the white leghorn, black minorca, andalusian blue and ancona all have many genes that are exactly the same but they are different breeds

I will acknowledge that body type will not be the same for some of the breeds but body type is only important to the SOP.




W+/W+ is white skin w/w is yellow skin

 

[Chooks man]

all Scientific data . Can any one show me a study done on the marans breed NOT any other breed please .

I m working with my team specific on the marans breed . we just started 3 years ago ,but we are going to catalogue this breed from all different angles .


BIRCHEN MARAN ER/ER is selected differently than other normal Birchen .

with a ER/ER birchen marans - Black copper .Blue copper . we don t want marking on the hens breast like the normal birchen ER laced all the way down her chest .

ER/ER marans chooks have some thing extra ,that why we don t want too much marking on the Rooster either ( minimum is better ).

each breed has it own genome .we all accept that . so any study done on Rode ,leg horn and any other breed I M NOT INTERESTED .

I m studying and breeding marans SO I M only interested on the marans breed .

any information about them will be appreciated OTHER wise I m not part of the conversation .

I m not her to prove the scientist and they research wrong .

I m here to share my work about how to breed a marans chooks not any other breed .

Scientist where paid and they where working with established breed selected for year .

sorry we don t have those chooks in our back yard .I don t think so .

Have a nice day to night to all of you peoples .

chooks man

 

[harmesonfarm]

Harmesonfarm


Perhaps, because different breeds have different locus and allele formations, each breed reacts differently with dominant and recessive genes due to their genetic make up? There are so many variations in genetic possibilities... to draw conclusive specifics based individually on alleles is not accurate unless you are modelling after a known genome cause and effect?

The research that I posted does draw specific conclusions concerning what a gene does. That is what scientists do with their research. The research takes in all the possibilities and then draws a conclusion based upon what the data indicates. They will eliminate all the genes that can cause an effect on a bird- through specific breeding strategies they eliminate genes and what is left is the effect of the gene in question.

The mahogany gene is classified it as a restrictor. A restrictor removes black from the body of a bird ( in males black is removed from the breast). The male black copper is not restricted and has a black breast, therefore the black copper does not carry mahogany. It is that simple.



Each breed has a specific genotype that is specific to that breed.

Rhode Island red is light wheaten (dominant wheaten), columbian restricted, carries the gold allele and carries mahogany. They have yellow skin alleles and also carry dermal melanin inhibitor. They have single comb alleles at the rose comb, pea comb and duplex comb loci. They also carry other genes but I will not list them.

If I take the same bird and add two mottling genes, remove the yellow skin alleles and replace them with the white skin alleles- guess what I have a speckled sussex

many different breeds have the exact same genes but all it takes is a few different genes to make a completely different breed or variety.

the white leghorn, black minorca, andalusian blue and ancona all have many genes that are exactly the same but they are different breeds

I will acknowledge that body type will not be the same for some of the breeds but body type is only important to the SOP.




W+/W+ is white skin w/w is yellow skin

How interesting!

So are you saying that the genome should be with a MI/- then for the marans @Wappoke ?
Reading would be:

ER/ER S+/S+ MI/- Id/Id W/W Pti-L/Pti-L?

Or am i just now confused...i sure feel like it! LOL

I've really only looked into Marans, so it's quite interesting to see the overlap in genomes...Makes sense though now you've pointed it out.

Thank you to you and @Chooks man who answered my original question, wow genetics can be an exciting, complicated and funny thing!
It seems once one question is answered...just as soon another question happens to come to mind! or maybe more like 10

I think I need a genetic break lol I'm getting way too deep to early I think!

 

[Wappoke]

How interesting!

So are you saying that the genome should be with a MI/- then for the marans @Wappoke ?
Reading would be:

ER/ER S+/S+ MI/- Id/Id W/W Pti-L/Pti-L?

Or am i just now confused...i sure feel like it! LOL

I've really only looked into Marans, so it's quite interesting to see the overlap in genomes...Makes sense though now you've pointed it out.

Thank you to you and @Chooks man who answered my original question, wow genetics can be an exciting, complicated and funny thing!
It seems once one question is answered...just as soon another question happens to come to mind! or maybe more like 10

I think I need a genetic break lol I'm getting way too deep to early I think!

Ok, my last post on the subject. If you are tackling this without a strong genetic background- I think you are doing quit well.

A male marans could carry only one melanotic Ml and appear close to the normal plumage color. In females that is not the case- females can carry one melanotic and will be near black or black. You do not want melanotic in the breed at all. If melanotic is a part of the breed's genetic makeup- you will be having problems with hatching out black females and occasionally black males. Read post 1816 above

I have a degree in biology and have carried out research at the university level. I have studied chicken genetics and analyzed chicken genetics papers for 15 years. I have carried out my own research in chicken genetics and have worked with a university professor on the subject. I am not some guy who just guesses at things, I get my information from my own work with chickens and the research I have studied.

I also helped breeders produce new varieties of Marans.


I read the standard for male black coppers. If they want spangling in the breast of the black copper then they do carry mahoganey. But this will present a problem in the females with too much red on the body.