South OH Chicks
Chirping
Chooks man. I showed a pic of this chick when it was a week old. The chick was hatched on September 10th. I believe this to be a cockrel. This is Leroy.
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Interesting on your perspective, although I must say, either you and chooks man are saying the same thing (but in different ways), or you are interpreting the scientific research differently then me.What I presented to you came from scientific journals and books that are scientific conclusions about the genes mentioned.
I will present the information to you.
A. Lets deal with melanotic first. Melanotic (Ml*Ml) is not a part of the genotype of the black copper marans. If the black copper marans carried melanotic, the males and females would not have the copper color in their hackles. Melanotic is a eumelanin (black pigment) intensifier that replaces the red pigments in the hackles with black pigments.
1. This is a quote from Poultry Breeding and Genetics, R. D. Crawford , page 118 - R.J.Smith was the author of the section dealing with plumage color in chickens.
"Ml is an incompletely dominant autosomal mutation that extends eumelanin into the normally red areas of pyle-zoned fowl, while having little effect on chick down color"
eumelanin is black pigment pyle-zone refers to the red in the neck hackles, saddle hackles and back of a chicken
2. Cote, R S, 1976, A genetic analysis of self-black plumage color in the domestic fowl, Master's thesis, University of Massachusetts
self black refers to a bird being a solid black color
In this study, he determined the genetic make up of 10 different birds (7 different breeds 9 different varieties) that were birchen or extended black at the E locus. One of the birds was birchen (like in birchen old english game plumage color).He discovered that 8 out of the 10 birds carried melanotic, one of the black birds did not carry melanotic, and the birchen bird did not carry melanotic. This study would indicate that most totally black birds carry melanotic.
3, Melanotic: Key to a Phenotypic Enigma in the Fowl, J Hered (1971) 62 (4): 215-219 Moore and Smyth are the authors
In this paper, Smyth does many crosses with chickens that have different E locus alleles- he found that melanotic is the key to making a black bird and to produce a black bird the bird had to have two melanotic genes.
4. Bantam Chickens by Fred P Jeffery
In his book page 153 he indicates all solid black birds that have yellow or white shanks carry melanotic
B. There is no recessive black allele. Punnett misinterpreted his findings. The recessive black gene is actually heterozygous melanotic on certain E locus backgrounds
In the paper Melanotic: Key to a Phenotypic Enigma in the Fowl, the paper discusses the plausibility of there being a recessive black gene in chickens. The authors of the paper wrote the following quote" The phenotypic descriptions and accompanying photographs strongly suggest that recessive black is the same mutation as Ml."
C. The research by Brumbaugh and Hollander, and that by Smyth and Somes would disagree with what is floating around the internet. Research by scientists reveals that the mahogany gene is a columbian-like restrictor removing black pigment from certain areas of the chicken's body. In the case of males, it removes some black from the breast of the male. In some cases , the breast will appear to be spangled.
The following is a quote from Smyth: GENETIC CONTROL OF MELANIN PIGMENTATION IN THE FOWL
"The major effect of Mh on the adult male is to restrict black from the base of the pennaceous part of the breast feathers. The amount of black left distally is less in homozygotes than In heterozygotes, some of the breasts of homozygotes resembling the secondary pattern, spangling."
"Several genes have been isolated that further restrict the black distribution associated with the unmodified E--alleles, primarily in the direction of a Columbian-like pattern. These include Columbian (Co),mahogany (Mh) , dark brown (Db)and dilute (Di). In addition there appears to be unidentified modifying genes such as those proposed by Somes and Smyth (1966) which tend to behave as a polygenic complex. Various genotypic combinations of the above can account for the many modified phenotypes ranging from a wild type male with slight red tipping on its black breast to a phenotypically non-black Buff Orpington."
"A number of genes appear to act as eumelanin inhibitors and modify the plumage toward the Columbian pattern. These are particularly effective against the black breast of wild type-patterned males, and reduce general body eumelanin In non-E females. Three such mutations that have been well established Include Columbian (Co),dark brown (Db) and mahogany (Mh). It would appear that there are other as yet unidentified genes in this category, possibly even a few with major effects. "
In addition to reducing the amount of black in the males breast, the mahogany gene would cause the red color of the female to be a darker red and remove some of the black from the body of the female.
"Mahogany's effect on primary pattern in the female is to restrict generally the amount of eumelanin in the plumage, particularly on the breast back and the wing bows and fronts. In the presence of sex-linked gold (s+), the phaeomelanin is dark red or mahogany In color. In the +e female the salmon breast also becomes dark red in color.
http://www.bantamclub.com/PDF/Smyth.pdf`
D. The mi gene is no longer used to describe a phenotypic expression. mi has been replaced by the Db or the dark brown gene.
Smyth, J.R., Jr and G.W. Malone, (1979). Evidence that plumage color genes mi and Db are identical. Poultry Sci. 58:1108-1109 (Abstract).
I have presented enough information that supports my position.
Chooks man
The RED SHOULDER an d SPECKED BREAST ae not caused by the Mahogany .it is caused by the AUTOSSOMAL RED ( BCM , Wheaten Marrans Salmon marans )
Does the above statement say that the salmon breast in silver salmons and golden salmons is caused by autosomal red,and that the wheaten color in wheaten marans is due to autosomal red.
the Birchen Marans or the Silver family like silver salmon and silver wheaten the Autossomal Red become the Autossoml White/Silver .
In the above statement are you posting that autosomal red is not expressed in birds that carry the silver allele.
Mahogany have no exact marking on the body but does help in enhancing the Gold marking and the sheen of the black .
Does the above statement say that mahogany is not a restrictor and does not effect the black on the body of the male or female. In other words, the mahogany gene does not remove black from the body of the male or female.
if the Black copper have no Melanin ,than they should have Pink shank like the other marans varieties because of the presence of Di Dermal inhibitor .
Does the above statement say that I posted that the black copper marans does not have melanin in its shanks and feet.
How interesting!Harmesonfarm
Perhaps, because different breeds have different locus and allele formations, each breed reacts differently with dominant and recessive genes due to their genetic make up? There are so many variations in genetic possibilities... to draw conclusive specifics based individually on alleles is not accurate unless you are modelling after a known genome cause and effect?
The research that I posted does draw specific conclusions concerning what a gene does. That is what scientists do with their research. The research takes in all the possibilities and then draws a conclusion based upon what the data indicates. They will eliminate all the genes that can cause an effect on a bird- through specific breeding strategies they eliminate genes and what is left is the effect of the gene in question.
The mahogany gene is classified it as a restrictor. A restrictor removes black from the body of a bird ( in males black is removed from the breast). The male black copper is not restricted and has a black breast, therefore the black copper does not carry mahogany. It is that simple.
Each breed has a specific genotype that is specific to that breed.
Rhode Island red is light wheaten (dominant wheaten), columbian restricted, carries the gold allele and carries mahogany. They have yellow skin alleles and also carry dermal melanin inhibitor. They have single comb alleles at the rose comb, pea comb and duplex comb loci. They also carry other genes but I will not list them.
If I take the same bird and add two mottling genes, remove the yellow skin alleles and replace them with the white skin alleles- guess what I have a speckled sussex
many different breeds have the exact same genes but all it takes is a few different genes to make a completely different breed or variety.
the white leghorn, black minorca, andalusian blue and ancona all have many genes that are exactly the same but they are different breeds
I will acknowledge that body type will not be the same for some of the breeds but body type is only important to the SOP.
W+/W+ is white skin w/w is yellow skin
How interesting!
So are you saying that the genome should be with a MI/- then for the marans @Wappoke ?
Reading would be:
ER/ER S+/S+ MI/- Id/Id W/W Pti-L/Pti-L?
Or am i just now confused...i sure feel like it! LOL
I've really only looked into Marans, so it's quite interesting to see the overlap in genomes...Makes sense though now you've pointed it out.
Thank you to you and @Chooks man who answered my original question, wow genetics can be an exciting, complicated and funny thing!
It seems once one question is answered...just as soon another question happens to come to mind! or maybe more like 10
I think I need a genetic break lol I'm getting way too deep to early I think!