Blue Copper and Splash Copper Marans Discussion

[harmesonfarm]

@Sonoran Silkies so birchen is the copper....ahhh i see. Thank you!!

So for it to be dominant it needs to be E^R/E^R correct?
And recessive would be E^R/e^r?
Or is birchen always dominant?

Thank you

 

[Chooks man]

Starting to learn genetics and the whole thing seems to be a bit over my head.
Just wondering though...is ER/ER the copper gene? or what is?
TIA

Good question .

the chooks are divided to 6 family genetically speaking . they are classify by they dominance .

1st is the most dominant family is the E/E Extended Black .uniform Black chooks

2nd is ER/ER Hackle family ( Birchen) .this family have 2 colors contrasting each other ,body color and the hackle color witch is different than the body .

3rd is EWh/ EWh the wheaten family

4th is e+/e+ wild type

5th is eb/eb

6th is ey/ey very recessive some wheaten marans are from this family .

hope that will help you

chooks man

 

[harmesonfarm]

Good question .

the chooks are divided to 6 family genetically speaking . they are classify by they dominance .

1st is the most dominant family is the E/E Extended Black .uniform Black chooks

2nd is ER/ER Hackle family ( Birchen) .this family have 2 colors contrasting each other ,body color and the hackle color witch is different than the body .

3rd is EWh/ EWh the wheaten family

4th is e+/e+ wild type

5th is eb/eb

6th is ey/ey very recessive some wheaten marans are from this family .

hope that will help you

chooks man

Thank you for the response...this makes sense. eb/eb is partridge brown? or am i confusing this with another?

How common is the wheaton in marans? just out of curiosity. I was told by someone that the wheaton when it appears in black copper strains that it's not a good line then...is this true or is it just a common occurance once in a while due to a chook having the EWh/EWh as a dominant?

I understand now too that the mahoganny is Mh/Mh...correct? and that BI can lighten this? or does it only effect ER/ER?

What causes one of these to become more dominant than the ones before them? is it the presence of the wild type? Or is it due to another allele that cancels the more dominant strain out?

Thanks for bearing with me...

 

[Chooks man]

Thank you for the response...this makes sense. eb/eb is partridge brown? or am i confusing this with another?

How common is the wheaton in marans? just out of curiosity. I was told by someone that the wheaton when it appears in black copper strains that it's not a good line then...is this true or is it just a common occurance once in a while due to a chook having the EWh/EWh as a dominant?

I understand now too that the mahoganny is Mh/Mh...correct? and that BI can lighten this? or does it only effect ER/ER?

What causes one of these to become more dominant than the ones before them? is it the presence of the wild type? Or is it due to another allele that cancels the more dominant strain out?

Thanks for bearing with me...

Yeah you are correct the eb/eb is a partridge brown.

Wheaten are accepted by the French and other country standard as a pure variety .
the problem is some wheaten are Ewh or eWh dominant to the wild type ( mean if we cross a wheaten variety to a salmon variety e+ we end up with a wheaten progeny .
other wheaten marans variety is the Recessive one ey/ey wen crossed to the wild type e+

Wheaten coming out of any variety are wheaten and should be isolated and bred true .if they come from a BCM that mean the last one where crossed in the past with a wheaten .

Mh is the mahogany .
BI is the bleaching when added to the black will turn it into Blue if only one dose is added . when 2 doses are added then will turn the black into almost grey white ( splash ) . this gene does not affect the Mahogany different Locus ( location on the chromosome ).

you are mixing the Locus and the Alleles placement .( I ll explain that later )

some genes are dominant by nature ,other are recessive too by nature .

some genes or most of them work in groups to form pattern and colors .
Example = ER /ER chooks they need some sort of arrangement in they genome to give the pattern we know them for ,so they genome will be =
first is the family genes, ER/ER ( always need 2 copies .2 from mam and 1 from dad )that will dictate the pattern
second they need a golden Gene s+ ( black copper ) but the gold is not enough by it self to produce copper ,So we need to sdd some Mahogany Mh .AH now we have too much gold/Red ( copper) that will interfere with the Black making it mossy ,So we must add some Melanin MI to keep the black pure .

So far we obtain this genome ER/ER ,s+/s+, Mh/Mh, MI/MI,b+/b+( black chook ) there is more genes needed to finish the pattern , those are the main one .

take it easy with genetic other wise you will get confused .

hope hat help .

chooks man

 

[Wappoke]

@Sonoran Silkies so birchen is the copper....ahhh i see. Thank you!!

So for it to be dominant it needs to be E^R/E^R correct?
And recessive would be E^R/e^r?
Or is birchen always dominant?

Thank you

The birchen allele is normally dominant over all the E locus alleles except extended black. If a black copper marans carries a birchen allele and a light wheaten allele, the birchen allele will be dominant. The birchen allele is constitutive and the wheaten allele is not constitutive. A birchen allele causes the production of a protein complex ( found in the cell membrane) that will turn on the cells pigment making machinery to make black pigments without the protein complex being turned on by a signal. In other words, the birchen protein complex is always turned on and constantly produces black pigments.

birchen protein complex always turned on----> constant signal to black pigment making machinery----------> lots of black pigment is made

The wheaten protein complex is different and has to receive a signal to become turned on and then cause the pigment-making process to begin. And even when the wheaten protein complex is turned on it will not cause the production of black pigment- the wheaten protein complex can only cause the cell to produce brown/salmon/cinnamon pigments. The black pigments are greater in volume and cover the brown so the feathers are black. This is why the birchen allele is dominant.

signal to turn on wheaten protein complex------> wheaten complex turned on------> signal to pigment making machinery-------> some brown/salmon/cinnamon pigments are made (the wheaten complex can also be turned off)

I believe the black coppers are birchen and sex-linked gold. The copper color in the males hackles could be caused by a gene that is modifying the pigments expressed due to the gold gene. It is also possible that the gold allele in the black copper expresses a red pigment that is different than that found in other breeds. The darker red located on the shoulders may be due to autosomal red.

Mahogany is not found in the black coppers because mahogany is a restrictor- the breast of the male should be black. Mahogany would cause some of the breast feathers to be red or even cause the breast to appear to be red spangled.

Melanotic is not found in black coppers. Melanotic would cause the copper area of the males to become black.

If melanotic is bred into a black copper flock, over time the new members of the flock will be black marans and not black coppers.

 

[Chooks man]

The birchen allele is normally dominant over all the E locus alleles except extended black. If a black copper marans carries a birchen allele and a light wheaten allele, the birchen allele will be dominant. The birchen allele is constitutive and the wheaten allele is not constitutive. A birchen allele causes the production of a protein complex ( found in the cell membrane) that will turn on the cells pigment making machinery to make black pigments without the protein complex being turned on by a signal. In other words, the birchen protein complex is always turned on and constantly produces black pigments.

birchen protein complex always turned on----> constant signal to black pigment making machinery----------> lots of black pigment is made

The wheaten protein complex is different and has to receive a signal to become turned on and then cause the pigment-making process to begin. And even when the wheaten protein complex is turned on it will not cause the production of black pigment- the wheaten protein complex can only cause the cell to produce brown/salmon/cinnamon pigments. The black pigments are greater in volume and cover the brown so the feathers are black. This is why the birchen allele is dominant.

signal to turn on wheaten protein complex------> wheaten complex turned on------> signal to pigment making machinery-------> some brown/salmon/cinnamon pigments are made (the wheaten complex can also be turned off)

I believe the black coppers are birchen and sex-linked gold. The copper color in the males hackles could be caused by a gene that is modifying the pigments expressed due to the gold gene. It is also possible that the gold allele in the black copper expresses a red pigment that is different than that found in other breeds. The darker red located on the shoulders may be due to autosomal red.

Mahogany is not found in the black coppers because mahogany is a restrictor- the breast of the male should be black. Mahogany would cause some of the breast feathers to be red or even cause the breast to appear to be red spangled.

Melanotic is not found in black coppers. Melanotic would cause the copper area of the males to become black.

If melanotic is bred into a black copper flock, over time the new members of the flock will be black marans and not black coppers.

you are absolutely wrong about almost every thing you said .

you seem to me you have no knoledge about the marans chooks breed .
you are talking about some thing else.

The RED SHOULDER an d SPECKED BREAST ae not caused by the Mahogany .it is caused by the AUTOSSOMAL RED ( BCM , Wheaten Marrans Salmon marans )
the Birchen Marans or the Silver family like silver salmon and silver wheaten the Autossomal Red become the Autossoml White/Silver .

Mahogany have no exact marking on the body but does help in enhancing the Gold marking and the sheen of the black .

if the Black copper have no Melanin ,than they should have Pink shank like the other marans varieties because of the presence of Di Dermal inhibitor .

any way you peoples need to make your maind and do some serious study about a marans chooks breed .I GROW UP WITH THEM .my mam was breeding them in the sixties tell she passed away in mid 80 .
I know what I m talking about and I m a member of the French marans breeding Syndicat .So I know my marans varieties genome by heart .

Still a lot genes we don t know about .

chooks man

 

[harmesonfarm]

Yeah you are correct the eb/eb is a partridge brown.

Wheaten are accepted by the French and other country standard as a pure variety .
the problem is some wheaten are Ewh or eWh dominant to the wild type ( mean if we cross a wheaten variety to a salmon variety e+ we end up with a wheaten progeny .
other wheaten marans variety is the Recessive one ey/ey wen crossed to the wild type e+

Wheaten coming out of any variety are wheaten and should be isolated and bred true .if they come from a BCM that mean the last one where crossed in the past with a wheaten .

Mh is the mahogany .
BI is the bleaching when added to the black will turn it into Blue if only one dose is added . when 2 doses are added then will turn the black into almost grey white ( splash ) . this gene does not affect the Mahogany different Locus ( location on the chromosome ).

you are mixing the Locus and the Alleles placement .( I ll explain that later )

some genes are dominant by nature ,other are recessive too by nature .

some genes or most of them work in groups to form pattern and colors .
Example = ER /ER chooks they need some sort of arrangement in they genome to give the pattern we know them for ,so they genome will be =
first is the family genes, ER/ER ( always need 2 copies .2 from mam and 1 from dad )that will dictate the pattern
second they need a golden Gene s+ ( black copper ) but the gold is not enough by it self to produce copper ,So we need to sdd some Mahogany Mh .AH now we have too much gold/Red ( copper) that will interfere with the Black making it mossy ,So we must add some Melanin MI to keep the black pure .

So far we obtain this genome ER/ER ,s+/s+, Mh/Mh, MI/MI,b+/b+( black chook ) there is more genes needed to finish the pattern , those are the main one .

take it easy with genetic other wise you will get confused .

hope hat help .

chooks man

ahhhh thank you!!!

lol that makes so much more sense now, and has solidified what I thought I have read / figured out. yay!

I will take it easy haha, for now i'm looking into maran genetics and specifics to them only. There are so many different alleles...whew! I'm glad that the few that i've looked into and studied so far for the marans is indeed right and making more and more sense to me. Hopefully it stays this way

I was indeed mixing up alleles and locus. Thank you for the clarification!! So how do you know what allele is positioned where on the locus? Is it based on the order they are written in for the genome?

It is my understanding that w+/w+ is a wild type for the skin colour, correct? is this then recessive?
What allele then causes the Mh to lighten, or is it the process of breeding it out?

Do the Wheatons have dark eggs as well then as part of the breed standard...to be 4 or more on the scale?

Thank you!!

 

[harmesonfarm]

The birchen allele is normally dominant over all the E locus alleles except extended black. If a black copper marans carries a birchen allele and a light wheaten allele, the birchen allele will be dominant. The birchen allele is constitutive and the wheaten allele is not constitutive. A birchen allele causes the production of a protein complex ( found in the cell membrane) that will turn on the cells pigment making machinery to make black pigments without the protein complex being turned on by a signal. In other words, the birchen protein complex is always turned on and constantly produces black pigments.

birchen protein complex always turned on----> constant signal to black pigment making machinery----------> lots of black pigment is made

The wheaten protein complex is different and has to receive a signal to become turned on and then cause the pigment-making process to begin. And even when the wheaten protein complex is turned on it will not cause the production of black pigment- the wheaten protein complex can only cause the cell to produce brown/salmon/cinnamon pigments. The black pigments are greater in volume and cover the brown so the feathers are black. This is why the birchen allele is dominant.

signal to turn on wheaten protein complex------> wheaten complex turned on------> signal to pigment making machinery-------> some brown/salmon/cinnamon pigments are made (the wheaten complex can also be turned off)

I believe the black coppers are birchen and sex-linked gold. The copper color in the males hackles could be caused by a gene that is modifying the pigments expressed due to the gold gene. It is also possible that the gold allele in the black copper expresses a red pigment that is different than that found in other breeds. The darker red located on the shoulders may be due to autosomal red.

Mahogany is not found in the black coppers because mahogany is a restrictor- the breast of the male should be black. Mahogany would cause some of the breast feathers to be red or even cause the breast to appear to be red spangled.

Melanotic is not found in black coppers. Melanotic would cause the copper area of the males to become black.

If melanotic is bred into a black copper flock, over time the new members of the flock will be black marans and not black coppers.

Thank you for the response!

I'm not sure if, from what I have read, that most of this fits with the marans, from my understanding of their genetic code they do contain mahogany and Melanotic as the MI allele.

I think you may be thinking of the mi allele, which does indeed do what you say - turns red into black as it is the recessive black allele.

For the other stuff, it may just be too scientific for me to grasp quite yet as I am new to this whole genetic thing (let alone protein complexes in the chickens!), and was not very good at biology when I did take it in highschool either. As an adult now though, (as highschool was quite some time ago...

) I like to think I have better mind focus and perseverance to bunker down until I do get it

 

[Wappoke]

you are absolutely wrong about almost every thing you said .

you seem to me you have no knoledge about the marans chooks breed .
you are talking about some thing else.

The RED SHOULDER an d SPECKED BREAST ae not caused by the Mahogany .it is caused by the AUTOSSOMAL RED ( BCM , Wheaten Marrans Salmon marans )
the Birchen Marans or the Silver family like silver salmon and silver wheaten the Autossomal Red become the Autossoml White/Silver .

Mahogany have no exact marking on the body but does help in enhancing the Gold marking and the sheen of the black .

if the Black copper have no Melanin ,than they should have Pink shank like the other marans varieties because of the presence of Di Dermal inhibitor .

any way you peoples need to make your maind and do some serious study about a marans chooks breed .I GROW UP WITH THEM .my mam was breeding them in the sixties tell she passed away in mid 80 .
I know what I m talking about and I m a member of the French marans breeding Syndicat .So I know my marans varieties genome by heart .

Still a lot genes we don t know about .

chooks man

Chooks man

The RED SHOULDER an d SPECKED BREAST ae not caused by the Mahogany .it is caused by the AUTOSSOMAL RED ( BCM , Wheaten Marrans Salmon marans )

Does the above statement say that the salmon breast in silver salmons and golden salmons is caused by autosomal red,and that the wheaten color in wheaten marans is due to autosomal red.


the Birchen Marans or the Silver family like silver salmon and silver wheaten the Autossomal Red become the Autossoml White/Silver .

In the above statement are you posting that autosomal red is not expressed in birds that carry the silver allele.


Mahogany have no exact marking on the body but does help in enhancing the Gold marking and the sheen of the black .

Does the above statement say that mahogany is not a restrictor and does not effect the black on the body of the male or female. In other words, the mahogany gene does not remove black from the body of the male or female.


if the Black copper have no Melanin ,than they should have Pink shank like the other marans varieties because of the presence of Di Dermal inhibitor .

Does the above statement say that I posted that the black copper marans does not have melanin in its shanks and feet.

 

[Wappoke]

Thank you for the response!

I'm not sure if, from what I have read, that most of this fits with the marans, from my understanding of their genetic code they do contain mahogany and Melanotic as the MI allele.

I think you may be thinking of the mi allele, which does indeed do what you say - turns red into black as it is the recessive black allele.

For the other stuff, it may just be too scientific for me to grasp quite yet as I am new to this whole genetic thing (let alone protein complexes in the chickens!), and was not very good at biology when I did take it in highschool either. As an adult now though, (as highschool was quite some time ago...

) I like to think I have better mind focus and perseverance to bunker down until I do get it

What I presented to you came from scientific journals and books that are scientific conclusions about the genes mentioned.

I will present the information to you.

A. Lets deal with melanotic first. Melanotic (Ml*Ml) is not a part of the genotype of the black copper marans. If the black copper marans carried melanotic, the males and females would not have the copper color in their hackles. Melanotic is a eumelanin (black pigment) intensifier that replaces the red pigments in the hackles with black pigments.

1. This is a quote from Poultry Breeding and Genetics, R. D. Crawford , page 118 - R.J.Smith was the author of the section dealing with plumage color in chickens.

"Ml is an incompletely dominant autosomal mutation that extends eumelanin into the normally red areas of pyle-zoned fowl, while having little effect on chick down color"

eumelanin is black pigment pyle-zone refers to the red in the neck hackles, saddle hackles and back of a chicken

2. Cote, R S, 1976, A genetic analysis of self-black plumage color in the domestic fowl, Master's thesis, University of Massachusetts

self black refers to a bird being a solid black color

In this study, he determined the genetic make up of 10 different birds (7 different breeds 9 different varieties) that were birchen or extended black at the E locus. One of the birds was birchen (like in birchen old english game plumage color).He discovered that 8 out of the 10 birds carried melanotic, one of the black birds did not carry melanotic, and the birchen bird did not carry melanotic. This study would indicate that most totally black birds carry melanotic.

3, Melanotic: Key to a Phenotypic Enigma in the Fowl, J Hered (1971) 62 (4): 215-219 Moore and Smyth are the authors

In this paper, Smyth does many crosses with chickens that have different E locus alleles- he found that melanotic is the key to making a black bird and to produce a black bird the bird had to have two melanotic genes.

4. Bantam Chickens by Fred P Jeffery

In his book page 153 he indicates all solid black birds that have yellow or white shanks carry melanotic


B. There is no recessive black allele. Punnett misinterpreted his findings. The recessive black gene is actually heterozygous melanotic on certain E locus backgrounds

In the paper Melanotic: Key to a Phenotypic Enigma in the Fowl, the paper discusses the plausibility of there being a recessive black gene in chickens. The authors of the paper wrote the following quote" The phenotypic descriptions and accompanying photographs strongly suggest that recessive black is the same mutation as Ml."


C. The research by Brumbaugh and Hollander, and that by Smyth and Somes would disagree with what is floating around the internet. Research by scientists reveals that the mahogany gene is a columbian-like restrictor removing black pigment from certain areas of the chicken's body. In the case of males, it removes some black from the breast of the male. In some cases , the breast will appear to be spangled.

The following is a quote from Smyth: GENETIC CONTROL OF MELANIN PIGMENTATION IN THE FOWL

"The major effect of Mh on the adult male is to restrict black from the base of the pennaceous part of the breast feathers. The amount of black left distally is less in homozygotes than In heterozygotes, some of the breasts of homozygotes resembling the secondary pattern, spangling."

"Several genes have been isolated that further restrict the black distribution associated with the unmodified E--alleles, primarily in the direction of a Columbian-like pattern. These include Columbian (Co),mahogany (Mh) , dark brown (Db)and dilute (Di). In addition there appears to be unidentified modifying genes such as those proposed by Somes and Smyth (1966) which tend to behave as a polygenic complex. Various genotypic combinations of the above can account for the many modified phenotypes ranging from a wild type male with slight red tipping on its black breast to a phenotypically non-black Buff Orpington."

"A number of genes appear to act as eumelanin inhibitors and modify the plumage toward the Columbian pattern. These are particularly effective against the black breast of wild type-patterned males, and reduce general body eumelanin In non-E females. Three such mutations that have been well established Include Columbian (Co),dark brown (Db) and mahogany (Mh). It would appear that there are other as yet unidentified genes in this category, possibly even a few with major effects. "

In addition to reducing the amount of black in the males breast, the mahogany gene would cause the red color of the female to be a darker red and remove some of the black from the body of the female.

"Mahogany's effect on primary pattern in the female is to restrict generally the amount of eumelanin in the plumage, particularly on the breast back and the wing bows and fronts. In the presence of sex-linked gold (s+), the phaeomelanin is dark red or mahogany In color. In the +e female the salmon breast also becomes dark red in color.

http://www.bantamclub.com/PDF/Smyth.pdf`

D. The mi gene is no longer used to describe a phenotypic expression. mi has been replaced by the Db or the dark brown gene.

Smyth, J.R., Jr and G.W. Malone, (1979). Evidence that plumage color genes mi and Db are identical. Poultry Sci. 58:1108-1109 (Abstract).

I have presented enough information that supports my position.