Buckeye Breed Thread

[bigredfeather]

Quote:
That would be me! Of course you did good. My Buckeyes are offspring from David Puthoff's flock. "Are they Urch?" Dave has a very gentically diverse flock. I think he has gotten bloodlines from 5 or 6 different breeders. This Summer I culled all the ones that I felt weren't up to standard. I am no expert judge, but I like to think I did okay.

 

[CARS]

Quote:
Size and frequency are my two top priorities too. So as a breeder, you can breed that into a hen? How do you determine that?? I can understand you would want to pick hens that do have those traits, but can you keep a history of roosters that pass that gene along too???

 

[JamesA]

Chris did a great job of explaining line breeding a few post back.Can someone give me the advantages and disadvantages to bringing in a different line of high quality birds into a flock of line breed birds and also flock breeding compared to line breeding to a specific male.I have learned so much from you guys so far.
Thanks, James

 

[LeBlackbird]

I have a Q...

If you cross a buckeye bantam and a Bantam BR, Will you get a sexlink? Like if you crossed it with a bantam RIR?

Thanx,
Blackbird12

 

[mrandmrschicken]

I am not sure where it is but ChinaChicks1 has a great list that shows inherited traits passed down from father and mother to chick.

i.e., leg color, father etc., maybe there are others too. If it helps do a search and see what you can come up with.

It should be important to know these as well.

 

[CARS]

Quote:
A search for those keywords yields at TON of stuff to sift through. Author search didn't net any less

It sounds like I am going to be snowed in for about 4 days. Plenty of time to search if nobody else remembers where the info is located. Sounds like a good read.

 

[cgmccary]

The advantage to bringing in a different line or even a strain is that the new line or strain has a trait that you are lacking in yours so you want some boost to help you with that specific trait. This is the reason you would want to bring in a new line or strain, . . . to improve some trait that you have not been able to improve on your own. Another reason would be if your line is suffering from a genetic diversity standpoint (you'd know that by poor fertility, poor hatch rate, etc.) and you just need an infusion of some new genes.

If there is a trait you see that needs improving and you are unable to do it by culling in your linebreeding, then identify a line or even a strain that has the trait you are looking to improve and then decide if you want to outcross.

The disadvantages would be bringing in some bad trait that is NOT now present in your line. For instance, I have never had a single comb Buckeye from my line (if someone experiences this with ONLY my line, I'd like to know). Introducing one of these other lines, you may bring in that "bad trait." I see it expressed in the combs of some of the Buckeyes I see. If you bring in an entirely new strain, not related to your birds in any way, then for a generation or two, you may have things crop up that you haven't seen but you would be accepting that fact.

With ALBC strain in your birds, JamesA, there are not many strains that would represent what you would call a total outcross (and you'd be hard pressed to find such a strain). Many other lines are of the same strains represented in your birds. I do not believe in outcrossing just for the sake of outcrossing. I brought in the ALBC male in 2007 because my Urch birds needed some genetic diversity & because I was wanting to improve size, shape & color & laying frequency-- so I had many reasons. Also, the ALBC male was not a total outcross as Urch strain was used heavily in its creation (as I was told, approx. 50% was an outcross, 50% Urch of which 1/2 or 25% of that 15 generations Urch removed) so I suffered no ill effects from the new source. Fortunately for you and me, JamesA, a Master Breeder did a lot of the hard work for us in 2004-2007. To get my ALBC male ('Fawks' as we affectionately call him) took three years and more than 1,000 chicks hatched the final year, in 2007. Then you had someone with an superior eye for selecting making the picks. That male, as all the ALBC strain, is already rich in genetic diversity.

Now there are real differences in our "eyes" for selecting & differences of opinion as to what we think a Buckeye looks like. One top breeder likes shorter legs than I do and a darker color. I like thick shanks but am not willing to sacrifice shortening the legs to get a thicker shank. I look at vigor, body shape (do I see a square?), heart/chest girth, thickness of shanks, thickness of skull, body weight, pelvic thickness, length and straightness of the keel bone, good spacing between the legs, thick thighs -- these traits I put first. Let me be the first to admit that I have not had Buckeyes long enough to have the best eye (this takes experience), but I am endeavoring to get get better.

{Let me explain what I mean by vigor. I mean virile, healthy, robust, spirited, energetic, muscular and lively -- I haven't had any Buckeyes that weren't this way; has anyone else? As Laura says, the chicks leap out of their shells--or my chicks outdoors on a windy 30 something degree morning running around like a little bug with their mam hen-- that is vigor.}

Secondarily, for me is color, comb shape (although I will not tolerate a large crumpled, garbled, messy comb-- no need as I have plenty that have excellent pea combs with the 3 ridges with highest in the middle, medium size),. For instance also, I DO NOT cull simply because I see green feathers in the neck or black specks on the feathers, or some red tarnish on the legs. I am not there yet. I DO cull for a half white primary wing feather (but again, I rarely see that so I have all those others without the fault). I cull for long retangular bodies.

There are some people who select their keepers for the most asinine reasons, and it shows in their birds; for instance, (and I am not kidding here)-- putting a game stag in with a pen of Buckeyes males and the one that steps forward and stands his ground the longest is the keeper (they call this "vigor"; I call it keeping the most stupid bird.) Well no wonder the birds look so poor after many years of selecting your birds for traits that have NOTHING to do with the breed. The Buckeye is not a pit game fowl. As we have all commented, our males can be kept together and they get along well. This is a good characteristic/ trait of the breed.

Or another asinine culling reason: because a pullet/hen goes broody. Historically, (and I believe this is now proven with Ms. Metcalf's advertisement from the old book), the Buckeye is a broody breed. Broodiness is a breed characteristic. When you select females on this basis (lack of it), then you are probably culling some who have excellent shape and nice, large bone structure, are going to be good layers, fast molters & have other very good attributes (wide pelvic width & depth). Because she went broody does not mean she lacks all these other superior physical traits. If you choose the non-broodies and the ones that always lays the maximum number of eggs, eventually, you are going to possess what looks like a RIR or more like a Leghorn hen. Some so-called breeders even opine how they want the Buckeye to look more like a RIR with a long rectangular body. A Buckeye is more of a square, more 1900 Cornish in appearance-- just read the description in the Standard & compare it to the other breeds. The Buckeye Hen is what gives you the shape; the Buckeye male gives you the color. The male brings to the mating the laying genes of his mother; this goes to his pullets. Remember, color is easy to correct. Body Type is more difficult. IMHO, because this is ignored or these other asinine breeding practices are followed, you have a good number of Buckeyes out there that look like a RIR-- sorry, I must call it like I see it.

My arguments have nothing to do with my debate that I like the leg a little longer (that is a matter of preference to the eye) or the different shades of mahogany bay color (look at the nut-- it is not the same color all over-- there are different shades) but my points have more to do with, "What is a Buckeye?" At the Ohio National in November, I heard a stranger woman in the Buckeye aisle remark that she wouldn't be ashamed to take any of the Buckeyes home she saw at the show. I thought to myself, "Well, I certainly would . . . ," like the one that for all purposes was really MORE RIR-- there was RIR looking male being shown as a Buckeye! At my request with Mr. Brown, of the "Brown Strain," he walked around with me, and he critiqued the the various Buckeyes, he said, "whoever is breeding that bird (talking about the one that looks like a RIR), is 'ruining' the breed." I simply said, "I agree." I said, "that [bird] is really a RIR." He said, "Yes, it is." If I had been taking a Buckeye Cockerel home, I would have been ashamed to take the "RIR-looking Buckeye" home & call it a Buckeye.

I apologize if I have stepped on any sensitive toes or if I appear to be ranting. It is not my intention to insult anyone. I simply want to point out the obvious and the absurd. Don't get bent out of shape over a green feather in the neck of a pullet. Look at what a couple of breeders at ALBC were able to accomplish with the Buckeye in 3 years vs. some who have kept the breed a lot longer. That was by better selecting and not simply more hatching. Don't listen to me if you want. Try your own way & see.

Chris

 

[JamesA]

Thanks Chris.You have more knowledge about Buckeyes in one toe than I have in my whole body!

I have learned so much from you in the past few months...THANKS!

 

[cgmccary]

James: your Buckeyes look great! As I told you before, that is a good group you picked out. You must have some talent for selecting by going to Roy's & picking all those young.

Chris

 

[JamesA]

Thanks, I am very happy with them.Roy actually helped me picked the best ones out.I picked these 6 girls and three boys out of a ton of birds.Roy has been great with helping me get started.I am already hatching chicks from Crazy horse and just set 12 eggs from Faulk.I will not need to mix any other lines in for a few years since I have the luxery of using your roo's.My girls are going on egg vacation I believe so I will probably have to wait before I set any more.I will get you to help me pick my keepers once these grow out.
Thanks, James