Buckeye Breed Thread

[Pathfinders]

I thought I would start a thread here about Buckeyes (so I can get them added to the pinned list!)

I am the Secretary/Treasurer and founder (along with my daughter) of the American Buckeye Poultry Club, and am happy to answer any questions I can about these great birds. So if anyone has any questions or comments about the breed (they come in large fowl and bantams), please don't hesitate to ask!

Thanks,

 

[cgmccary]

I would never feed chickens cat or dog food. Way to much sodium and too much junk in there. It says not for human consumption right on the bag. And I eat my eggs and meat.

I am sure that chicken feed and all the other things chickens eat on free range are not anything I'd eat myself & chicken feed is not fit for human consumption either. Does anyone think humans should consume chicken feed? I don't eat any of my animals' food. I saw a Buckeye hen running with a small snake in her mouth the other day. I am sure she ate it. I wouldn't eat it.

Years ago, I had someone, better in math than myself, compute the amount of sodium in cat and dog foods and what a chicken could rid its body of according to what has been written in some scientific journals & concluded that the amount of sodium in such foods (and what they are capable of consuming) was no danger to chickens. I keep reading about the the "way too much sodium" thing but as far as I am concerned, it is a myth propagated and repeated ad nauseum on poultry and group websites.

I have been treating my chickens to dry dog food for years. It started with them stealing the dogs food while the dogs were eating (so I gave the chickens a bowl so they would leave the dogs alone). I have groups of hens 5, 6 & 7 years old who are healthy & still laying well for their age so it doesn't seemed to have harmed them. My chickens also consume the treats the cows and donkey drop (their sweet feed, alfalfa & oats) and hang out dangerously under the big animals competing for the drops.

My chickens also stay in the compost pile all day. I wouldn't eat out of the compost pile either.

I wouldn't make other animal foods the basis of my chickens diet, but my Buckeyes particularly are real pigs -- i.e. they seem to enjoy eating everything and anything. The important thing is that they free range and are not consuming one thing, whether their feed, the cows sweet feed, the dogs' food, the snakes, etc., as their sole food.

 

[campbellorchard]

Ok. I know I'm new here.
But I do not like the idea of anyone adjusting their color spectrum for any reason before posting pics. It does not help anyone get a true idea and it causes drama. If the camera is doing that then I'd suggest getting a new one. Silly to have to even post this.
And second of all it is my understanding that all breeders of buckeyes should be working dually with Mrs Metcalfs thought process and (her standard) along with the "legit" sop.
Again why can't these two dueling thought processes not come together for the benefit of what we all want which is to have buckeyes which meet both, to be as popular as other breeds and on most every farm and suburban coop.
I stay quiet and shake my head and outright laugh at the ridiculous cat fight and downright FOWL behavior on here. It really does not honor who you are or your purpose with buckeyes to make most of us ignore these threads because its a soap opera.
You all need to play nice.

 

[cgmccary]

Greathorse:I considered Buckeyes before finally settling on RIR as a breed that I wanted to breed and ultimately show. Can you detail for me some of the reasons you like these birds so much?

I have a hard time looking at them without comparing them to the RIR standard as they are quite similar (to my eye) especially in the coloring.

could you address

Don Schrider, Master Breeder (& formerly from the ALBC) had this to say in distinguishing Buckeyes & RIR:

The only difficulty in breeding Buckeyes with the correct slate bar in the undercolor of the back is that most of today's Buckeyes have had a dose of RIR introduced recently. Many judges and breeders make the mistake of thinking that the Buckeye's color should be identical to the color of the RIR. This is incorrect. Today's Buckeye should be a lighter, redder shade of color than today's exhibition RIR. Just go back and read the Standard and compare the two breeds. Watch your birds for the Slate Bar {in the back}, particularly the males (as this is the easiest way to predominate it in your line).

I find the Buckeyes to be a unique breed with quite a few unique habits. They do not tolerate confinement too well as they are very active - often looking like they wrestle all day long. A friend of mine, Dennis Pearce for Stanwood, WA, says he can raise Brown Leghorns and Buckeyes in the same pens - the Buckeyes come to the front of the pen and the Leghorns to the back (at least when he is there). I have seen Buckeyes come off the roost in the pitch of night when a light came on, and pounce on mice like cats. They "roar" as well as crow. And they have very pleasant personalities. They are just different.

You can help preserve Buckeyes by breeding them to be like Buckeyes and not RIRs. Correct the color and breed for broad skulls and meaty square bodies (a RIR is Brick shaped, rectangular; while a Buckeye is more of a square). Your Buckeyes should have very well muscled wings and thighs too.

Chris McCary​

 

[SimplyForties]

I love my Buckeyes, which are ALBC strain. I consider them to be the perfect free-range bird. They are friendly without being needy. Mine have no interest in being handled or touched but aren't in the least agressive and, hoping I have a treat, always come running. They are pretty self-sufficient, hardy and neither need nor want anyone fussing over them. Just what I was looking for!

 

[cgmccary]

CARS: A few months ago, I was planning my 2010 plans and Buckeyes were on the top of my list. I just re-read Laura's article on spiral breeding http://www.pathfindersfarm.com/Spiral.html and would like to have some of the Buckeye breeders explain their breeding operation.

What is the minimum numbers needed to get going? What size pens do you use and how many hens per roo for good fertility without "over use"?? Anyone care to share their breeding setup pictures???

Basically, I need a dozen eggs a day and a meat chicken each week (averages). How does one calculate this? I think I read that each hen will lay up to 200 eggs a year. So just doing math in my head each hen will give up to 16.6 dozen eggs a year. Alright, I need a calculator . A dozen a day, 365 dozen divided by 16.6 dozen that each hen can lay means I need 22 good laying hens just to keep up my egg production. That is similar to my existing mixed flock so I think my math is right.
How do you add in 50+ meat birds (hens v/s roo hatching ratio) and the "lazy" layers? Then figure in that I will need to separate some breeding stock... wont I??

Alot goes into breeding doesn't it (or maybe I am just over thinking everything)

When I first started, I had never seen a Buckeye, only read about them (the only picture I had ever seen was a couple I found online but nothing like the many posted here).

I started with only a pair to see if I liked them. The first time I had ever seen a Buckeye live was when I opened a shipping box from Duane Urch and there was a cockerel & pullet (7-8 months old). A shipping delay sent the pullet into a pre-mature molt, and she didn't lay an egg for a couple of months. When she did start laying, I saved the first 7 eggs, one every other day so it took 14 days to collect that little group of eggs. I put the 7 saved eggs in the incubator and all of them hatched. Remarkably, all of them turned out to be pullets. I was asking everyone, "how and when can you tell a Buckeye cockerel from a pullet?" well because these all looked alike (well yeah, they were all the same sex). This gave me 1 male & 8 females to go forward. I did not get a son out of them until the next year.

I guess what I would convey with any breeding program is two things: FIRST, make sure you love the breed and are dedicated to it. SECOND, PATIENCE. We live in a society where everyone wants instant gratification. It should take you some work & time in a breeding program. If it doesn't, then what is the use? For myself, I like the journey of getting there. I see all the time where someone wants the best of the best right away and they want eggs as soon as possible & they want them laying a lot. It takes a lot of time and patience to get what you want out of any breeding program. Patience is what I see as the key ingredient along with a lot of work.

Initially, you do not necessarily need to set up a spiral breeding program. A spiral breeding program is one you intend on keeping past your lifetime, leaving a legacy if you will. After breeding for about ten (10) years, if you decide, you have created something great that you want to pass on, then start a spiral breeding program at that time.

To get started, I suggest a more humble approach. Get you a couple of cockerels to 6-12 or so pullets or like JamesA did, he purchased 3 trios. If good stock, you can successfully linebreed them for years without having to outsource. After the initial breeding year, then breed Father to daughters, grandaughters, great-granddaughters, great-great grand-daughters & then separately, breed Mothers to Son, grandson, great-grandson & great- great grand son. Then take a great-great-great grandson from the Father's line and breed it back to the all the females in the Mother line. Take a great- great-great grandson from the Mother's line and breed to the females in the Father's line. Never breed brother to sister unless they are perfect specimens (seldom). Take the females from these matings and breed back to Father. Take a male and breed back to Mothers. Begin all anew. OR breed Father back to Mother's line's last pullets and vice versa. This will keep you going for the next 5-8 years with no additions. I like to hang on to some hens from each generation and keep great males for as long as possible wanting to slow genetic drift. Things happen and circumstances change so this is not always possible.

For the eggs, you will eventually want to keep pullets & hens of different ages. Pullets/hens lay best their first and second years & the start and end times of laying depends upon their hatch dates/ the time of year, etc. I would suggest keeping more than 22 Buckeye hens if you want a dozen eggs a day (perhaps 30-40). Mine are all on different laying schedules. Remember, a Buckeye is a dual purpose bird (eggs and meat). If one increases egg production too much at the expense of body type (i.e. improving the 150-200 a year egg range), then you do so at the peril of the superb meat bird sought & they begin to look like some of the more prolific laying breeds. Buckeyes are not laying machines but they are not poor layers either. Buckeyes from their creation have been and remain a breed that goes broody. They are capable of hatching and rearing their own young. Be prepared to deal with the broodiness.

You will cull your extra males for meat (and there will be plenty of them, about half) and you can probably easily sell all your extra pullets (since they are in such high demand). I always tried to keep an extra male or two as well & in the event of a catastrophe. With 22-30 hens, you need at least 3 males. BTW, one of the "extra" two males I kept instead of eating won the Best of Breed at the Ohio Nationals, so you never know what may happen (that particular male was very slow, initially, to develop & was not an initial "keeper" for me but he had good type).

If you are not interested in breeding for leaving a legacy or showing birds but simply putting eggs & meat on the table, then simply start with a couple of cockerels, a dozen pullets, build your flock the first year, then hatch and raise replacement hens each year, cull (eat) old hens when they get out of production, breed your replacement cockerels every 3-4 years OR obtain a cockerel from a breeder (by trade or purchase) whose birds are somewhat related to yours every 3-5 years. You can go on indefinitely this way for years & years, keeping 22-30, 1-3 yr old hens, this way, should be enough for the purpose you state. You can also breed uncles to nieces, to grand-nieces, etc. & you can breed aunts to nephews and to grand-nephews, so forth, etc.

It all comes down to what YOUR breeding purpose is. By talking about spiral breeding, then in my mind, I think, "showing, breeding for the good of improving and cultivating the breed, leaving a legacy for my children & their children "VS. breeding for eggs & meat (which you seem to indicate by your post). This breed, the Buckeye, needs more Breeders of the former kind, for sure. There are lots of so- called "Buckeye Breeders," who have been "breeding" for many years & who are nothing more than the later (BUT who claim, rant & rave, to be the former).

Most flattering to me was that Duane Urch got a cockerel from me at the Ohio Nationals last month to put back into his breeding program. I consider Mr. Urch to be a savior of the Buckeye breed as he has had them more than 50 years, and one of the most knowledgeable & humble poultrymen I know. By obtaining a male from me, Mr. Urch can successfully cross back into his line without having the adverse effects of a total outcross. Mine are several years removed from Urch's line and also, I obtained a male from the ALBC strain in 2007 which I bred into my Urch offspring (which with the new ALBC strain, the Urch strain was used to create anyway). The cockerel Mr. Urch obtained is a sibling to the BB cockerel, also to (on this thread) JamesA's birds, to Jensscott male, to Sekinkead's male to rnau's birds (he, rnau, has my males I used in the breeding to get all mine. JamesA is using the same males in his breeding program).

Very sorry for the long post (& rant). I hope I didn't confuse everyone.

Christopher McCary
President, American Buckeye Poultry Club​

 

[cgmccary]

chocolate_ muscovy: cgmccary, you mentioned different buckeye strains near the beginning of this thread. What's the difference between Urch, Brown, etc.? Are they bred for meat/dual purpose/exhibition in various proportions? Or are these strains mostly geographical?

It is not really geographical but more simply, a different & distinct population-- for lack of a better term: a strain as being different in their source or origin & unrelated and apart. To constitute a strain, the population of birds must be bred in more than one location by more than one breeder. Keep in mind this is by word of mouth. Those of us who talk about Buckeyes have developed our own groupings to identify the source- trying to identify genetic variation. We have just arbitrarily assigned the strains names ourselves from our discussions (and others may want to group birds differently using their own, their different standards, terminology,etc. [although "others" it seems have chosen to "copy" our terminology]):

Urch Strain: named for Duane Urch (MN) who got his first Buckeyes in the late 1950s and sustained them ever since, APA Poultry Judge, SPPA founder & just about everything else; most Buckeyes seem to have originated from Mr. Urch's birds. Most breeders' lines inevitably lead back to Urch's flock but many have been bred apart from each other for many years. Examples: Sandhill Preservation line; Fitche line, Empire line, Romig line; Stromberg's Hatchery (OH).

Brown Strain: John Brown (OH) first acquired his birds from a woman in Canada in 2000; believed to have been some Chantecler bred into them not so far back in the past. Recently, by Brown himself, have had Dark Cornish bred into them for shorter legs, thicker shanks and darker color. We refer to them as Brown Strain because we believe they are a different population from Urch strain and Mr. Brown worked with these Canadian Buckeyes for the past 9 years & for lack of a better name . . . Example: Matt John/ Shady Lane Poultry

ALBC Strain: Through the American Livestock Breeds Conservancy's Buckeye recovery project, this population was created using Urch strain, Pearce Line/strain (15 generations Urch strain removed) and Brown strain and was finely selected-- they have their own look and are the ones you particularly see in the shows (because the ALBC breeders worked hard on their size, shape and weight). There are many flocks of this strain out there.

Mean-as-Snakes Strain: Schrider talks about this group as being a separate population distinct from the others and in the hands of a few Ohio breeders, when asked about their birds, they said they are as "mean as snakes" and thus the name. They were described as being extremely mean in temperament & unrelated to the other strains.

Rhodes Strain: named for Bob Rhodes (MA).

There are some other strains, no doubt.

Many of our lines are a combination of these strains. My line has Urch and ALBC. Laura Haggarty's (Pathfinders) line has Brown and ALBC. Some are pure Urch; others are pure ALBC. Ideal Hatchery (TX) got their birds from Meyer Hatchery (OH), and we are just unsure (at least I am) of Meyer's source -- they have not revealed it, are reluctant to do so or they just don't know.

ALBC Strain birds can be bred to Brown strain or Urch strain birds to strengthen their gene pool with no ill effect. remember though, we are just trying to identify the original source as far back as we can, that's all.​

 

[Blueface]

To those that are new to the breed and curious about the "bar of slate" referenced above. Here are a couple decent pictures. Now I do realize that the SOP calls for the "bar of slate" on the back only. Several of the specimens that we are breeding have this "bar of slate" throughout the plummage of the body......thought I'd share.

 

[DarkRedBird]

The american buckeye club does have a site for understanding the SOP with pics and illistrations. http://americanbuckeyeclub.blogspot.com/p/understanding-sop.html It is free and open to the world to see.

 

[Pathfinders]

Easter chicks into the brooder this morning, 45 cuties from the pen with Chris' "Red Cloud" (thanks again Chris!) They look lovely.