Cemani

[wclawrence]

Yellow skin genes should not stop a bird with fibromelanosis from being black. Especially when they have two copies of Fm and are gypsy faced too.

I know it does not stop the blackness at all. Some of my birds have white in the ear lobes, which I personally like.
The ones that are white in the lobe, and also having Fm and yellow skin, will have a lobe colored somewhat greenish. But the bird still looks black everywhere else.

 

[Dipsy Doodle Doo]

Hi! I am, have been, and will continue to breed my big black skinned/fleshed birds. They are more attractive *to me* than the pics I've seen of Cemani.
Mine are just more fabulous because *I* made them myself.

Lisa

 

[NateDomRIR]

Okay, thanks guys, everythings clear as mud and now I have to really think about what direction to take!

This is what tickled my fancy about the Cemani, the total blackness of the bird, the huge straight black comb (I had a Jersey Giant with a huge comb), and the huge size. So I want a huge black straight combed chicken. Heck, I might as well make him a longcrower and a longtail too that lays blue eggs.

Anyways I want to thank wclawrence and resolution for the conversations and insight.

I really want Cemanis. So what do I do with chickens that are part Cemani? Breed them together? Outcross them to what to get type first then the melanism?

 

[Resolution]

Quote:
In order for the American Cemani outcrossed to be used with any efficiency- or meet any selective breeding objectives- the correct genetic framework needs to be laid out beforehand.


Two separate lines to be established.

One line contains, Shamo, Sumatran and a few novel demes not found in most domestic chicken genes.

Another line contains Tomaru and Black Java.

A third line contains two old Japanese breeds and Ayam cemani.

A carefully bred composite of this stock will ostensibly create a North American Ayum Pelung and from this a North American Ayam Cemani.

 

[Resolution]

Quote:

This is not an issue of fibromelanosis but rather the conformation, voice, and carriage of the Ayam Kedu.
The Ayam Kedu is the progenitor of the Ayam Cemani and the Ayam Pelung. Most Ayam Cemani are huge birds and these are derived of Ayam Pelung stock.
Smaller birds, especially in Java tend to be Ayam Cemani derived of Ayam Kedu stock. Again, Cemani is at its core nothing more than a colour distinction.
In Indonesia, where this mutation is not infrequent, composites of different cemani morphs are common.
But in Indonesia, there is a very large difference between white fleshed, yellow fleshed, grey fleshed, black fleshed and pink fleshed chickens. Each carcass in the market has its own name- identical to what the living bird is called but when one sees the dressed birds on display, feet and all, it is difficult to not appreciate their comprehension of diversity. Diversity keeps their localized poultry economy moving. Without an appreciation, there would be no use for the archaic breeds like Kedu/Cemani.

Breeding toward the black skin and plumage does exactly nothing for actual underlying conformation of the breed. You end breeding for that level of selection much later down the road.
We tend to get so wrapped up in the superficial characteristics we miss out entirely on what the internal structure- the genetic matrix of a breed is framed upon.
How do you build a house without a plan? Without a foundation? Do you start by painting boards and attaching them to one another?
This is how important breeds have been destroyed.
People don't understand the value of some traits and so they ignore them- the red salmon leg of the original Marans, the long generously proportioned tail of the Quetero progenitor of the Araucana and so on.

Black Kedu- these birds have white skin and black plumage. Early stages of the Black Kedu were carried to Korea and Japan in ancient times where they would become the progenitors of the Tomaru

Original Bali form of the Kedu

Javanese Cemani will often be somewhat intermediate with the Ayam Kedu- that is, they will exhibit some trace of red in the bare facial skin.

Large ('Greater') Cemani will also tend to exhibit the carriage of the Austronesian game breed maternal founders. While the Smaller ('Lesser') Cemani tend to exhibit the carriage of the Ayam Bekisar paternal founders

This 'Modern' Cemani exhibits the carriage of Black Java maternal founders.
When you introduce Indian (yellow-skin)genetics into the mix you are working against the Indonesian founder genetics.

The Kedu is a white-skinned bird unless it is an Cemani sub-breed where obviously it has black flesh.

Just how black are we talking here - so black that it can't afford the tiniest bit of other colour in the tissue.

Many Pelung will exhibit greenish legs and these birds are considered inferior - for medicine or cuisine and these could never be used in producing Cemani because of the demand for a specific colour of flesh and bone. Yellow or greenisk skinned birds are never used in the selection process- this analogous with not breeding brown egg producing chickens with blue egg laying chickens. These cemani morph birds are at least four times darker than a Silky - they have more genetics going on here responsible for carnosine than what the Silky or the Sumatran, for that matter. It's not so simple as black tisse or comb type. Any dedicated poultier could arrive at this morphotype but they need to work in cooperation.

 

[tingle]

Hi everyone I know I am only on with my first ever cemani but I know what its like to want something so bad,If there is some sort of organization to start the Cemani in the US I would be willing to send the eggs for free to the spokesman/organizer ??? as long as the carriage was paid for just a thought,Tony

 

[tingle]

Forgot to add,"when the birds start laying,probably Autumn"

 

[wclawrence]

Those are some real nice pics Resolution. I especially like the ginger-red looking rooster that says Moua Oriental Aviary on the pic. I have some (1/4 grey junglefowl) that look a lot like him.
I was reading thru this post and I realized that there may very well be two schools of breeding dark birds in the US. There will be (1) those who do like Resolution say, and make those crosses, take their time, be very selective, and get birds that are in type very much like a Cemani. There will be (2) those who simply want the super-black chickens, and would actually prefer for them to be more in type like the birds they already have.
I just happen to be in the second group.

When I first started my project(s) I was much inspired by some of the pictures I saw on feathersite. Some of those were Barry Koffler's Grey junglefowl hybrids. Some were the south american breeds, for which page Resolution wrote the text. So I have been breeding birds to suit me since I started.
Since I like the dark flesh, that is one thing I have incorporated. My birds are not Cemani and never will be. I want them to be that dark in the face. I also like the beard and muff and pea comb and blue egg gene. I also like a lot of the genes that the Grey junglefowl has contributed to my birds. I also love the longcrowing genes and the longtail genes. But I like a big heavy build like the asil has.
So I have a few dark birds that are pretty clean if anyone is interested. But I am pretty sure they would not fit into the "real Cemani" project if anyone is going to pursue that.

As one final note, I want to add that if anyone has real cemanis in the US they should speak up.

 

[Resolution]

I don't want people to get the idea that I am condoning the practice of creating hybrids with Jf as we all know full well the serious dangers this poses for JF (communicable diseases/genetic pollution). Nevertheless, novel genes from wild Jf were necessary in the early development of some archaic breeds. This is what sets them apart from others on a genetic level. Indeed, the Kedu is a descendant of the female Indonesian Red JF -a different subspecies than the matriarchal ancestor of 99% of domestic fowl. Consequently, with the Cemani, we are dealing with a bird of a different feather to begin with.

The Bali Stag WC Lawrence mentions is the original 'wild type" Kedu ( also called the "Ayam Bali") . I suspect that this bird is largely Ceylon JF. As the bird is in a collection somewhere in Asia this is more than likely the case as the recombination between Ceylon and Green through an Indonesian dam (female) is the pedigree of a specific lineage- that led to the cemani prototype, followed by the sumatran and silky sisters of that prototype- That cemani lineage - it is present in the Ayam Kedu, which also includes dual purpose blood- analogous in every way with the Black Java. -though this is then bred interse for many consecutive generations. The higher the number of generations bred interse- that is between siblings or sister lineages - the higher the value of the Kedu. Somewhere along the way the two different black Kedu emerged. From sire Kedu bred to giant games the Pelung and Greater Kedu were derived.

Ceylon Jf are basal to Grey Jf. That is, the Ceylon is very closely related if not identical to the recent ancestor of the Grey JF.

The Green is basal to the Ceylon. And as I've repeated many times here, all three JF (males only) were used by ancient cultures at the advent of the domestication o f the chicken. It is from these ancient recombinations that specific traits were first introduced into domestic chickens.

In short, certain hybrid stocks will resemble these archaic breeds in principle if not conformation. This will not bring you any closer to generating useful domestic fowl.
The Ayam Kedu is a very productive and rigorous breed. Hybrid jf derived strains are not going to produce hundreds of eggs and put generous amounts of meat on the table. This requires artificial selection of a whole different level. This selective breeding never ends- really- if it does end- and everyone ends up with the same clones- you end up with---never mind you know that already.

As this thread is dedicated to Cemani I will assume that there will be no further discussion on hyper-melanized chickens unless they are stock being bred towards the Ayam Kedu/Cemani/Pelung we should take up other wonderful strains elsewhere and something tells me that there are other juicy melanin discussions going on simultaneous to this one.

I hope this isn't a death knell to the Cemani thread. I'm not willing to let my Cemani stock out unless poultiers are willing to go about it in the patient method.

Of course I applaud what everyone else is doing with their own unique stocks but again, if you are not interested in the breed registry which logically includes cooperation and breeder loan agreements than I won't collaborate with you.

 

[cedarcreekchickens]

Quote:
How long do you figure this patient method will take. I'm in no hurry, just wondering. You have Cemani stock?