Coccidios Not Responding to Corid or Sulmet

[ChickensAreSweet]

I really hate to do this but is there anyone out there who could direct me to BYC articles or any for that matter that would deal with a form of Coccidiosis that shows paralysis and doesn't respond to 3 seperate courses of Corid and finally a full treatment of Sulmet. All of these birds have been wormed with Safeguard as well.

I just received a call from the Vet who did a necropsy on one of my birds I believed had Marek's because of the paralysis that kept showing up in the birds I have lost. I mean textbook, one leg forward and one leg back paralysis. One bird pulled out of a mild case, only one leg involved but in the second bout, a month later, she succumbed to what I believe was the occular form of Marek's. Lumps around the eyes that had not been there before and blindness. According to this Vet's findings, it is either the food is not giving the proper nutrition or it's coccidios.

I have not read through the responses but here is some information you might find useful, for now or for the future if it isn't pertinent at the moment.

http://www.thepoultrysite.com/publications/6/diseases-of-poultry/217/vitamin-b2-deficiency
see the pic of the one with one foot in front and one in back

"A vitamin B2 deficiency can be mistaken for Marek's disease since both have enlarged peripheral nerves." from
http://www.ca.uky.edu/smallflocks/Nutrient_deficiencies.html

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ps031
here's an eye link

Some vets will do a fecal float test for coccidiosis for a small fee.

I just wanted you to have these links if necessary and do not know what the diagnosis is. I am sorry for your losses. Also you might want to think about botulism- here is info and link:

"Clinical signs in poultry and wild birds are similar. Flaccid paralysis of the legs, wings, neck, and eyelids is seen. Paralytic signs progress cranially from the legs to include the wings, neck, and eyelids. “Limberneck,” the common name of botulism, describes neck paralysis. In affected waterfowl, neck paralysis can lead to drowning. Affected chickens have ruffled feathers. Signs in broiler chickens may also include diarrhea with excess urates in the loose droppings. " from
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/205400.htm

 

[Rare Feathers Farm]

I've also heard than vaccinated birds can still CARRY Marek's but not show signs or become infected. Other times, birds that are vaccinated will get it because the vaccine wasn't given correctly.

 

[Haunted55]

Sounds like another form of Marek's? I have read that it will affect different birds in different ways...I've never dealt with it personally but I have heard it can be really hard to get rid of.

I've dealt with Cocci and it's always responded well to dry, clean conditions and Corid.

Don't know if this helped any.

You don't get rid of Marek's. It's the 'gift that keeps on giving'. If your bird survives and can reproduce, as i understand it, those chicks will show immunities to the strain of marek's the parent bird was subjected to. A good thing, but most who survive can't reproduce. Their insides are so messed up that it is impossible.

 

[Haunted55]

I have not read through the responses but here is some information you might find useful, for now or for the future if it isn't pertinent at the moment.

http://www.thepoultrysite.com/publications/6/diseases-of-poultry/217/vitamin-b2-deficiency
see the pic of the one with one foot in front and one in back

"A vitamin B2 deficiency can be mistaken for Marek's disease since both have enlarged peripheral nerves." from
http://www.ca.uky.edu/smallflocks/Nutrient_deficiencies.html

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ps031
here's an eye link

Some vets will do a fecal float test for coccidiosis for a small fee.

I just wanted you to have these links if necessary and do not know what the diagnosis is. I am sorry for your losses. Also you might want to think about botulism- here is info and link:

"Clinical signs in poultry and wild birds are similar. Flaccid paralysis of the legs, wings, neck, and eyelids is seen. Paralytic signs progress cranially from the legs to include the wings, neck, and eyelids. “Limberneck,” the common name of botulism, describes neck paralysis. In affected waterfowl, neck paralysis can lead to drowning. Affected chickens have ruffled feathers. Signs in broiler chickens may also include diarrhea with excess urates in the loose droppings. " from
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/205400.htm

Oh good Lord!....that first link is just what I have seen in some of the birds. Mine were a bit older but the same 'roadrunner' stance. Maybe he is right about it being a problem with the feed. But wouldn't you think that as they got older this would have wiped out all of them? When they were still in my house in their brooder boxes there was none of that showing. I just don't know what to think anymore. This is crazy and I am so new still to poultry that my educated guesses are a far cry from the mark.

 

[Haunted55]

I've also heard than vaccinated birds can still CARRY Marek's but not show signs or become infected. Other times, birds that are vaccinated will get it because the vaccine wasn't given correctly.

Yes on both counts from what I've been told. I also contacted the owner of McMurrays and spole with him about my problems as some of the chickens were from them and had been vaccinated. What he told me is they vaccinate for a 3 strains in the spring and if some of the birds i purchased from them [I did in May] then the strain of Marek's I had here was a mutated strain and nothing would protect from it.

 

[tiki244]

Wow I am so sorry for all the suffering you and your chicks have had to go through. This sounds aweful.

It looks like you have some good links to look up. I am thinking that they may

1) have had coccidiosis and didn't get it treated completely and then got it back. Then older birds can harber it with pretty much lack of symptoms. Sulmethadioxine is an excellent medication for cocci but needs to be administered exactly because it can be dangerous. Then after a treatment you should really add vitamins and electrolytes and probiotics to their water. Coccidiosis and the medication can sap the chicks of nutrition.

2)Had cocci and were treated and then got a yeast infection in their gut from the antibiotics and that was not treated (this can also rot the gut and cause a lack of nutrition)

3) or mareks~I don't know how they got Mareks (may have even been from when you walked in the store at TS and picked up on your shoes?) I am sure the coccidiosis weakened them for other diseases. I have read that a vaccinated chicken does NOT transmit the disease to other chickens (so wether they are carriers or not I do not know~but highly doubt it because they can not pass the disease on)




I hope that next year you can hatch some chicks and give the vaccine(I would confirm it with a State Vet before you start with a vaccine) and have a better experience.

I will try and look up a couple of links>Seems the links I am trying to find are no longer available. ~I will tkeep looking for a link to help you

 

[tiki244]

links for mareks>http://www.ultimatefowl.com/wiki/index.php?title=Marek's_Disease


coccidiosis>http://www.ultimatefowl.com/wiki/index.php?title=Coccidiosis

 

[leadwolf1]

I had no idea that this was your history. Marek's doesn't kill like this. You don't see 'lump' deaths. It is usually one or two at a time and they go slowly. Rarely, do they go quickly.

I would suspect botulism or something along those lines with them dropping like this. I would also suspect Coccidiosis. A vitamin B deficiency makes sense with all the Corid that was pumped into them. Amprolium is a vitamin B blocker. Dang, I should have asked for your history...I feel terrible. Not all would be wiped out due to the differences in birds. Some may have been able to manufacture more vitamin B or, they didn't drink as much of the Corid or, they managed to find the right bugs to help them out. Ok, so now I am grasping at straws. What doesn't make sense is that Coccidia feed on Vitamin B...they need it to survive. How would they overpopulate a bird that was vitamin b deficient?

What kind of feed are you using?

I'm in shock.

Sorry, I'm a little shocked by the the first results of this necropsy.

History;

Hatched eggs in incubator in March 2012 13 eggs hatched. All healthy. Did not give Marek's vaccine because was too stupid to think of getting it before hand. Was too caught up in the miracle of the hatch.

March 9th, bought 6 Wyandottes and 6 Partridge Plymouth Rocks from TS. Was told they had been vaccinated for Marek's.

April 7th, started eggs for a friend

May 1st 2 chicks had hatched and had died. Friend's eggs. Not counted in my loses.

May 4th, picked up order of chickens, meat birds, turkeys, geese from local farm store. Mt Healthy birds vaccinated for Marek's.

June 5th, had first loses of chicks, 2. Meat birds fine. Geese fine.

June 15th loses of my hatched birds, 3 in one day. Partial paralysis in 2 birds, wing and leg. The last one just flat on floor of brooder, no symptoms.

June 21 Still getting medicated feed and 7 more dead. 5 birds showed symptoms of wing paralysis and some involvement of left legs. 2 just found dead. One bird with paralysis still hanging in there.

July 6th, 15 birds showing paralysis and inability to get food and water on their own. 6 more dead no symptoms. No longer getting medicated food. Switched to 20% grower.

July 9th, birds showing signs of cocci, started course of Corid.

July 11th, 10 more birds showing signs of paralysis. 2 found one leg forward and one leg back. One bird from the June 21st paralysis has seemed to recover. No problem getting around and is able to eat and drink without help.

July 12th, culled 24 birds beyond help and 6 more found dead in morning.

July 29th, birds still showing symptoms of cocci. another 7 day course of Corid.

July 30th, 1 found dead, 1 bird not getting up to eat or drink. Hand fed and watered 8 times during the day.

Aug.3rd., 6 more birds dead. Some had shown signs of leg problems, unsteady gait and easily tired.

Aug9th, bird who seemed to recover from partial paralysis showing lumps/tumors around eyes and appears to be blind. Has been free ranging during the day with original layers from 2011. Started another course of Corid as remaining sick birds showing signs of cocci still.

Aug. 14th, 4 more birds dead at evening chores. Bird with blindness is culled because she cannot fend for herself any more.

Aug. 17th Only 2 birds left from TS, 1 wyandotte and 1 partridge rock. Partridge rock is the size of a softball at 23 wks..

Aug. 19th, started course of Sulmet as some birds still symptomatic of cocci. 1 bird found dead at morning chores.

Aug. 28th 4 more dead and 3 with very pale combs. All still eating and drinking.

this is where I stopped writing things down. I don't know if this will help or not but thank-you so much for responding.

 

[speckledhen]

I have never in my entire reading heard of coccidiosis causing paralysis, nor have I heard this from a vet.

There are 9 named types of coccidiosis, however, there are new mutated unnamed types that kill without bloody poop which can be passed down through the parent stock. The ONLY symptom is lethargy, then sudden death, never paralysis that I've ever heard of. This information comes from necropsies done by state vets in two different states on two different sets of birds.

Any mention of necrotic enteritis?


ETA: I sure hope you can figure this out. I'm so sorry for the stress this has to be causing you.

 

[Haunted55]

Leadwolf, they started with Purina medicated chick food for 8 weeks, switched to Dumor 20%. The last 2 birds from TS and the last 6 from my hatch were intergrated with my original 2011 flock of 9. They are on Purina Omega3 layer pellets. At 18 weeks I tried to put the birds I had left onto the layer as well. After 3 days they didn't look like they were doing so well, I switched them back to 20% and there they stay. I can't put my finger on what was wrong with the layer either, more of a gut feeling than anything. The one thing that did stand out after the switch to layer was they weren't as lively. Oh they were still active and running around but...it was a nuance that just wouldn't go away. After every dose of Corid they were given vitamins with electrolites in their water everytime it was changed or filled. Bird powder [kaeco] sprinkled onto their food as well. As chicks [up to 4 wks.] they had sav-a-chick in their water every filling as well.

With the Corid and especialy the Sulmet, I was extremely careful of giving them the exact dose recommended. No more, no less. I had already done the reading up on the effects and dangers of the Sulmet.

As for it being botulism, I don't think so. Botulism is usually fast acting. These birds from this year are all undersized, every one of them. They have lingered with whatever it is I have here. You could tell that something was wrong for a long time before they died. Weeks and even months. That's why I've been going out of my mind with this. Nothing has worked. Their pens are clean, spotless, no, but clean and top dressed with DE every time changed, usually 1 x's wk., the 'boy's' pen is done more often becuse they are always spilling their water with their running around, water fresh 2 x's daily, more if needed, food always available to them and checked to make sure it's clean and fresh. Windows in house still wide open. When pens are cleaned, birds are removed and everything is sprayed with a half bleach, half water solution and allowed to soak for 45 mins., then I go in with a power washer and rinse everything down and scrub out anything left [I have drains in the floor, seems to be the only smart thing I've done this year]. Another rinse with clear water and then a spray of 3/4 water to 1/4 bleach, left to dry. While waiting for that, all of their food and water containers are washed and rinsed with hot water and a little bleach. Left in the sun to dry. Then everything is put back.

Now with the additions we added to my original chicken house [building went from 8 x 12 to 16 x 18] we have front of house, layers and 2 roos in one room and a 6 x 8 brooder/hospital room. 15 birds are currently in there, mostly females. Some are still symptomatic, but most seem to be recovering. They are allowed out to range most days. Back of house can be divided into 5 pens with storage at one end and a walkway in front of the pens. Currently I have it set up as 3 pens. The boy's pen being the largest, 5 x 9, as these birds have not been outside at all yet. [still working on their run] the next 3 x 5 pen is for 2 roos from my hatch,they are allowed out to range sometimes, and the last is for my showgirls and silkie, they also have not been outside. As soon as possible the boys will have their own building and run away from the main chicken house. The lumber is already here, just need the weather and husband's time off to work together for a change.

I am trying to give you an idea of what I have here. Something is wrong and I hope someone can see it and tell me. I go round and round with this everyday and I know that after a while you just can't see it any more. I know that the B vitamins especially can raise havoc with development in babies, but some of these birds have been allowed to range and are still coming up with blindness and paralysis. If it's that then I have no idea what to do about it. Give more B's? If it is cocci that's not going to help, it'll just kill them faster. More Corid, I don't think some of these poor little guys will make it through another course without dying. That bird weighed 1.5 lbs and should have been 10 lbs. She was the worst but there are still some who are under weight. I'm going to go back and top dress their food with the cayenne pepper. Band-aid for a gunshot wound maybe but I hope it may cut down on the colonization in their intestines, if it is cocci. If it isn't cocci, then they'll get the added vitamins from the pepper and the anti inflamatory benifits.