Cold hardy AND broody choices?

[speckledhen]

Quote:


Here's the rub. HATCHERY types have much of the broodiness bred out of them. For example, I've NEVER had a hatchery Barred Rock brood, however, when I got the old line heritage true Barred Rocks, that changed. As for Wyandottes, NEVER had a hatchery Wyandotte go broody and EVERY hatchery Wyandotte I had died from reproductive malfunction (internal laying and/or egg yolk peritonitis). I won't touch a hatchery Wyandotte ever again after all that, nor any of the most common hatchery layers that folks get every spring, including the Rocks, Orpingtons and production type Rhode Island Reds (all of those also died from internal laying/egg yolk peritonitis or cancer). One of my two hatchery Orps did brood. My breeder quality Orps did brood multiple times. As some say, your mileage may vary. My experience has made me swear off most hatchery stock, period.

In addition, be very careful getting birds at those swaps and auctions. Those can be minefields of disease. Better to buy from breeders whose method of dealing with disease is a sharp axe at the first sign of it.

The best hatchery stock I've had were the Brahmas, though mine didn't brood. They do great in cold or heat, lay pretty well. My Rocks are very heat and cold tolerant as well.

 

[Tnic]

HOLY COW! A veritable whirlwind of data!

I'll def be checking out the suggested breeds. I'm considering Cackle Hatchery for the initial buy as they CLAIM to sell heritage breeds in the birds I'm currently most interested in. Now I have to check on the expanded list ya'll gave me.

Is "heritage" the same as (or similar to) heirloom seeds, will reproduce in kind and from older stock and unfussed around with?

As for the electricity part, the barn might be wired, but I haven't been in to check things out yet. If not they have some good solar fence chargers and solar and wind is another facet of my over all plan as well. If I get into raising cockerels for the freezer in larger batches I'll likely fence em in pasture with the electric net fence and solar charger or maybe just set up a separate run and have work another compost pile for me. Can't have all those little rascals just eating all day.

Oh and those Wyandottes are at a local breeder, the sell n swap is a mag, Uncle Henry's.

I'm not married to any particular breed as long as they'll feed my family and I can help someone else to start their own small flock to feed their family and grow a flock of their own, I'm good.

Those Beilefelders must have some serious farfegnugen! They're gorgeous, but a tad pricey, I hafta say. The site I found on a search had pullets for $50 each!

THANKS GANG!!!

 

[speckledhen]

Just be warned that some who call themselves breeders are only propagators of hatchery stock. That is, they started with hatchery stock and continued breeding hatchery stock to hatchery stock, never improving or bringing in good breeder stock.

The hatchery may sell heritage breeds, but not heritage lines. A Barred Plymouth Rock is an old heritage breed, but hatchery stock today bears little resemblance to the original Barred Rocks. They are smaller, thinner birds, generally, with oversized combs (Leghorn-ish in some cases) and with messy, cuckoo barring and the hens tend toward reproductive issues more than the heritage lines do. Their genetics, quite frankly, just suck.

I started with hatchery stock, fell in love with BRs from those, but they went the way of most of my original hatchery hens, sadly. A few years ago, I acquired hatching eggs from a breeder who had the 50 year pure line of Marvin Stukel Rocks. The barring is exquisite, the size of the birds is amazing and they should lay for years longer and stay healthier than my hatchery Rocks. They do brood and do well in the cold and the heat.

Hatchery BR hen and rooster, left, heritage line BR hen and rooster on right:


That hatchery hen above was about 5 lbs, way under the proper weight for a BR hen. The ones I have now are "big girls".
Another, closer look at one of the 3 year old heritage line BR hens:



Some would say a downside to heritage lines is that they take much longer to mature so you'll wait longer for the eggs to start, but they should lay longer to make up for that, though naturally at a reduced rate as they age. As long as you get away from the first generation hatchery stock, though, you'll be better off. I do have daughters of hatchery BRs still alive at almost 8 years old, though only one is still laying on occasion.

All that said, if you don't want them to live to be 8-10 years old, or want to turn over your stock every two to three years, hatchery stock may be fine for you, but the broody part may be harder to find than a good hatchery layer.

 

[ChickCrazed]

HOLY COW! A veritable whirlwind of data!

I'll def be checking out the suggested breeds. I'm considering Cackle Hatchery for the initial buy as they CLAIM to sell heritage breeds in the birds I'm currently most interested in. Now I have to check on the expanded list ya'll gave me.

Is "heritage" the same as (or similar to) heirloom seeds, will reproduce in kind and from older stock and unfussed around with?

As for the electricity part, the barn might be wired, but I haven't been in to check things out yet. If not they have some good solar fence chargers and solar and wind is another facet of my over all plan as well. If I get into raising cockerels for the freezer in larger batches I'll likely fence em in pasture with the electric net fence and solar charger or maybe just set up a separate run and have work another compost pile for me. Can't have all those little rascals just eating all day.

Oh and those Wyandottes are at a local breeder, the sell n swap is a mag, Uncle Henry's.

I'm not married to any particular breed as long as they'll feed my family and I can help someone else to start their own small flock to feed their family and grow a flock of their own, I'm good.

Those Beilefelders must have some serious farfegnugen! They're gorgeous, but a tad pricey, I hafta say. The site I found on a search had pullets for $50 each!

THANKS GANG!!!

Ha ha yes, They are German Engineered after all

. The prices are coming down, though.

 

[Michael OShay]

Is "heritage" the same as (or similar to) heirloom seeds, will reproduce in kind and from older stock and unfussed around with?

Here is the official definition of "heritage" breeds from The Livestock Conservancy (http://www.livestockconservancy.org/index.php/heritage/internal/heritage-chicken).
Definition:

Heritage Chicken must adhere to all the following:

1. APA Standard Breed
   Heritage Chicken must be from parent and grandparent stock of breeds recognized by the American Poultry Association (APA) prior to the mid-20th century; whose genetic line can be traced back multiple generations; and with traits that meet the APA Standard of Perfection guidelines for the breed. Heritage Chicken must be produced and sired by an APA Standard breed. Heritage eggs must be laid by an APA Standard breed.
2. Naturally mating
   Heritage Chicken must be reproduced and genetically maintained through natural mating. Chickens marketed as Heritage must be the result of naturally mating pairs of both grandparent and parent stock.
3. Long, productive outdoor lifespan
   Heritage Chicken must have the genetic ability to live a long, vigorous life and thrive in the rigors of pasture-based, outdoor production systems. Breeding hens should be productive for 5-7 years and roosters for 3-5 years.
4. Slow growth rate
   Heritage Chicken must have a moderate to slow rate of growth, reaching appropriate market weight for the breed in no less than 16 weeks. This gives the chicken time to develop strong skeletal structure and healthy organs prior to building muscle mass.

Chickens marketed as Heritage must include the variety and breed name on the label.

Terms like “heirloom,” “antique,” “old-fashioned,” and “old timey” imply Heritage and are understood to be synonymous with the definition provided here.

Whether or not any hatcheries, including Cackle, actually sell "heritage" breeds is a matter of much debate. Many breeders are really negative where hatchery birds are concerned, and you can understand why when you read a post like that of speckledhen. My experience with, and opinion of hatcheries however has been somewhat different than speckledhens. I have ordered on multiple occasions from four different hatcheries, Dunlap Hatchery, Murray McMurray Hatchery, Ideal Poultry, and Cackle Hatchery. Their birds are inexpensive (which in nice when you are buying in large quantities; 25 or more at a time in my case), and I have been satisfied with their service and their birds (I never lost a single chick in shipping from Dunlap). Are their birds show quality? No. Do they conform to the standards required to call them "breeds." This one has been hotly debated at times by BYC members, but while hatchery breeds may not conform to APA ideals, mine have always bred true (for example 4th or 5th generation Barred Rocks will still have the black and white barring, the red earlobes, the yellow skin and feet, the single comb, etc. of their Barred Rock ancestors. No one is going to confuse them with a White Rock or even a Dominique. While it may "erk" some breeders to refer to hatchery birds as "breeds," for purposes of practicality and necessity, the label works just fine. And, apparently unlike speckledhens, I have had plenty of hatchery "breeds" go broody and raise chicks (including Wyandottes). In addition, my hatchery-bought birds have generally been very vigorous, and in many cases have outlayed their show bird counterparts that are owned by breeders who are more concerned with APA standards than they are with lay rate (that's not to say that show breeds can't have good lay rates). But if a person's main concern is a good lay rate, instead of paying considerably more show quality birds, he or she can purchase breeds from hatcheries which have proven stains of great egg layers. In fact the very best layers (at least among brown egg layers) are not true breeds, but Sex Link hybrids (of course these hybrids are not going to breed true). I'm sure you are going to get lots of different opinions on this issue, but the bottom line is, you have to satisfy only one person and that is you. What is it that you want out of your birds?

 

[speckledhen]

Quote: Exactly, Michael, why I said what I did at the end of my last post, which was:


Quote:
After having 15 hens or so die from basically the same reproductive malfunctions and all from the same hatchery, of course, I refuse to buy from them again. When I was in the middle of that, I consulted a PhD in poultry science and he finally said I should find a different source for my stock. I do not have that same trouble from my breeder quality and/or heritage line birds. I loved my hatchery hens for their jumbo eggs and great rate of lay...until they started becoming ill internally, that is. I hate watching hens suffer and die.

I've only had one hatchery hen ever go broody, a Buff Orp, but I know others who got theirs from a different hatchery who had Barred Rock hens brood. Could be one of my Wyandottes might have gone broody if even one of them had lived long enough but they began dying just after they turned 2 years old and one died earlier than that when I took another chance on them again. Too many other people have had the exact same experience with their hatchery Wyandottes, so I'd say that breed is probably one of the worst for reproductive malfunction.

I took a chance on a different hatchery this year and have one Buff Orp and one NH pullet who are now 17 weeks old. They both look to be about 12 weeks old to me; in fact, they are about the same size as my heritage line batch of Plymouth Rock chicks who are 13 weeks old tomorrow. Neither of those hatchery pullets has grown as I expected and what Ive come to expect from my breeder stock. I hope against hope that they don't suffer the same fate as my other hatchery hens did.

Hatchery birds are one way to get started in the hobby, to find out what you like. I did and most others did, too. I found that my hatchery BRs were friendly and personable. My heritage line BRs are friendly and personable. The hatchery Rocks lay larger eggs than the heritage line I have, overall. The rate of lay is maybe a bit better with the hatchery birds, but it's a moot point if they start malfunctioning at 2-3 years old. You may not have that experience. Many do, some don't. I'm just giving you some points to mull over and the decision is never a wrong one-it's yours, entirely, as Michael said.

 

[Michael OShay]

After having 15 hens or so die from basically the same reproductive malfunctions and all from the same hatchery, of course, I refuse to buy from them again. When I was in the middle of that, I consulted a PhD in poultry science and he finally said I should find a different source for my stock.

If you don't mind sharing, I, and I suspect other BYC members, would like to know which hatchery this was so that we don't make the mistake of purchasing from them (especially their Wyandottes). )

 

[lazy gardener]

I'd love to suggest that you look at Dominique. I'm also fond of EE or Ameraucana, and one of my EE laid very reliably last winter (3 eggs/week) without extra light, while the RIR and home bred BSL did not lay until Feb. If you're looking at RIR, i'd suggest that you look at Buckeye instead. There's a gal in Maine who is breeding Buckeyes. I don't know the quality of her stock. For my own flock, I'll not choose any more straight combed birds, and will not have feathered feet due to winter frost bite issues. I am in the Bangor area, and use electronet, as well as allowing free range when i'm at home. Love the electronet! Come visit us on the Maine site.

 

[speckledhen]

If you don't mind sharing, I, and I suspect other BYC members, would like to know which hatchery this was so that we don't make the mistake of purchasing from them (especially their Wyandottes). )

I believe that most folks know that my entire original flock, all of whom have passed on, plus some subsequent birds in the next couple of years, came from Ideal. All the Wyandottes came from there, both the silver laced and the one gold laced. My original group consisted of Wyandottes, RIRs, Buff Orps and Barred Rocks. Those are the most common "feed store breeds", other than the sex links. My Lt Brahma and my Buff Brahma also came from there and they seem to not have the sucky genetics that the others did, thankfully, but then, they aren't the first breed you think of for egg production. The Lt Brahma died at 5 1/2 years with cancer. I still have the Buff. She is 7 1/2, though she doesn't lay and has severe pendulous crop, though I consider that just something peculiar to her and to do with her advanced age.

The two undersized pullets I have now came from Mt. Healthy-decided to give them a chance. I hope they have better luck with their reproductive lives than the others did. My other birds were hatched from good breeders years ago and their progeny are what I have now.

If I had not had the experience I did with the genetic/hormone based reproductive malfunctions in these hens, I would still buy from hatcheries as well as keep the old heritage lines of Rocks and Delawares and the breeder Ameraucanas. Maybe it was a few years of inbred or low quality stock from Ideal, maybe they are better now, who knows? I won't take the chance again myself, but this input is just for the OP to decide what to get and where to get it for his purposes. Forewarned is forearmed, right?

 

[Michael OShay]

I believe that most folks know that my entire original flock, all of whom have passed on, plus some subsequent birds in the next couple of years, came from Ideal. All the Wyandottes came from there, both the silver laced and the one gold laced.

Interesting! I've ordered several times from Ideal and never had any health problems with their birds, but then I never ordered any Wyandottes from them (it appears that was a good thing). It's been a long while since I've had Wyandottes, and the Silver Laced ones that I had came from Murray McMurray. Actually of the four hatcheries that I've ordered from, generally the best quality birds have come from Dunlap, which is the smallest of the four (bigger is not always better), and they do not even carry Wyandottes (maybe for a good reason). Anyway, thanks for the information. I doubt I'll ever order Wyandottes from a hatchery again, but if I do, I'll avoid ordering them from Ideal.