Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[enola]

IMO the "gold" designation, needs to definitely be qualified with an IMO rather than stated as a fact, even if stated by one of the Clubs officers or other person. The origination of this really needs further examination. There is a lot of dismissal of Cream Legbars, that is not based on an actual look at the actual genes. It would be nice if this opinion were stated as such.

I agree! It is so confusing as a novice at this breed I find it very hard to tell the difference people stating opinion or fact.

 

[blackbirds13]

IMO the "gold" designation, needs to definitely be qualified with an IMO rather than stated as a fact, even if stated by one of the Clubs officers or other person. The origination of this really needs further examination. There is a lot of dismissal of Cream Legbars, that is not based on an actual look at the actual genes. It would be nice if this opinion were stated as such.

I agree! It is so confusing as a novice at this breed I find it very hard to tell the difference people stating opinion or fact.

For those of us that are breeding double cream ig/ig birds this has moved on past mere opinion. The confusion comes from the perpetuation of a genetically incomplete bird as being not so, and here I am speaking of the 'gold' toned birds that KPenley was describing. I will be on my F3 gen this spring. My flock is all cream and breeds true for all cream. I will not designate my postings as opinions when it comes to the cream aspect as I have facts that I have proven in my flock to fall back on.

edited to fix credit error

 

[Laingcroft]

For those of us that are breeding double cream ig/ig birds this has moved on past mere opinion. The confusion comes from the perpetuation of a genetically incomplete bird as being not so, and here I am speaking of the 'gold' toned birds that KPenley was describing. I will be on my F3 gen this spring. My flock is all cream and breeds true for all cream. I will not designate my postings as opinions when it comes to the cream aspect as I have facts that I have proven in my flock to fall back on.

edited to fix credit error

Since I am still trying to get a handle on what cream should look like, what confirms that your flock is double ig/ig other than breeding true? If you did not have them DNA tested (the only way to be 100% dead on accurate as to genotype) what appearance (phenotype) are you defining as cream?

I assume you started with obviously gold CL and something lighter that said cream to you and by selective culling now have a flock that breeds true for your cream appearance. If you did not start with obviously gold CL then how do you know you don't have silver crested blue egg legbars (for lack of a better name since cream wouldn't be exactly accurate to apply to a silver)

Do these questions make sense or am I hopelessly confusing issues?

ETA - part of the problem is the use of the word cream in the SOP. Cream not being defined that is. One person's cream may be pale straw and another person may see ecru...or pale beige...or white...or well, you get the idea (Just like with what is a "blue" egg.)

 

[blackbirds13]

Quote:

I have gold toned girls and have bred them and they have recreated more gold toned females. I currently have 4 golden girls in both dark gold and lighter gold. I have one that fooled me for quite a bit but she is gold even if she may have 1 ig gene. It is very hard to describe what I see unless folks have seen it for themselves. I started off with 2 different colored females - 1 with cream hackles from Feb 2012 and one with gold hackles from October 2011. I had one male that was light enough for me to assume he was carrying cream (2011) 1 or 2 ig genes I could not tell you, and a second that was more colorful (2012) but with better type. I knew even less about genetics then so I made my best guesses and started reading. I did not assume in any way that my birds are silver... 1) there was no reason to 2) if there were silver birds around in those earlier birds we would not have so many gold birds from that time and 3) In breeding my gold girl to my lighter rooster I still ended up with darker and lighter gold birds as opposed to any silver looking offspring, male or female as they'd need 2 ig or silver. I was able to get birds that looked pretty much like the second lighter female when she was bred and then when that was bred they pretty much had the same color tones.

I have a hackle color in my pullets and hackle and saddle color in my roosters that runs consistent. I have issues with melanizers that may cloud the issue for others when looking at the birds especially if they have not bred them.

I have no desire to DNA test my birds....
Have I tested or do I intend to test breed my birds specifically for silver? No. This is just a hobby for me so that would be a complete waste of time and money for me personally. I'd rather buy more shoes to add to my collection of about 90 or so pairs and spend my free time on a variety of things.

The questions make sense but they ask to assume something is amiss in the lighter color when there was no reason to do so as this idea of some sort of prevalent silver gened Legbar just seems to be more myth than fact. If I had listened to those around me at the time I could have ignored my own research and intuition and bred the gold forward but chose to ignore the alternate voices here on BYC and instead did follow the UK standard and put color and type as both primary and bred the cream colored birds forward. If more folks could see what they look like they would not call them silver and if they could compare them ... well... anyway, I know I don't have silver gene birds but for those that like the gold birds, prefer them or have them this idea is just hard to put to rest as this question has been put forth to me before or implied. The work I would have to do to prove to others that they are not silver is more than I care or intend to do to satisfy that question for some.

 

[KPenley]

Pardon the broken record...
It is my humble opinion that cream is "very pale butter" as the PCGB responded to our inquiry a few months ago. Their response was based on a 2 month study by three judges who will be involved with or will be judging our birds in our acceptance show. It's important to remember that roosters will be lighter than hens because of two doses of barring on top of the cream ( all diluters). Also, I would like to continue to encourage everyone to breed towards a consistency of color between the hackles and saddle in the rooster. If you're seeing straw colored feathers they are most likely undiluted gold IMO. Why do I think that? Because the standard for Gold Legbars uses "straw" as their color description of gold.

Sounds like a lot of comments lately have been concerning silver looking birds. To test for gold or silver:
"breed one white or silver looking bird to a gold bird to discover if it is cream.
If the offspring are all gold then your bird is cream (ig), since it is gold diluted by cream.
Just one gold parent crossed to a cream bird will produce 100% golden looking offspring.
Likewise a true cream bird bred to a cream bird will produce 100% cream offspring.
A silver rooster crossed to a gold bird will produce all silver offspring.
A silver hen crossed with a gold rooster will produce gold pullets and silver cockerels. "
(yes I just quoted myself lol...but this method has been recommended multiple times by geneticists and breeders). Curtis mentioned recently that he had found an early age that showed the color differences, perhaps he can chime in. I like to wait for the saddle and wing bar for roosters, but I can tell differences in the pullets by 4-5 weeks since I have both cream and golden birds and can observe the differences side by side).

Has anyone tested ( by test hatching) one of their Cream Legbars and found it to be silver? I have not heard of anyone, but it would be very helpful to the discussion if you have!

Update for Fanciers: rooster wings are under review. It is my hope to get possible revisions completed by the mid March shows. Please feel free to PM me your email addy if you would like to be sent the draft standard, or revised version when available, for upcoming shows!

 

[dretd]

I personally think some of the problem with the perception of Cream vs non-Cream Cream Legbars comes from folks new to the breed looking at the GFF website and seeing the two Buy It buttons with a Cream Legbar hen and roo (reposted from Feathersite)

:

What I see happening is that the new person will get attracted to the undeniably very beautiful photos of the roo and hen and then seeing the discussion on here about how many birds are Gold and not Cream, then wondering to themselves why the Cream Legbar Club gets to say that when the original importer of the breed is showing pictures of very Gold saturated birds.

New people may be attracted to this rich color of the Cream Legbar and then come in here and we are saying that their beautiful Gold birds are incorrectly colored. It is then compounded by many breeders trying to breed out the allowed chestnut in an otherwise Cream bird, so the birds end up looking very black and white (which is of course breeder's discretion on what they like)--when it was the combination of the silver and gold coloration that attracted the new folks to the breed in the first place.

IMHO it is a real marketing problem for the CL Club on two fronts: 1)What is Cream vs Non-Cream 2) the tendency to remove all chestnut from the breed. I fear that many of the new folks will try the breed and find that the birds they like are not the birds of the SOP and life is too short to go down a path that makes you unhappy. I am thinking that it may be a really good move on our (the CL CLub's part) to add a Ginger Cream Legbar to accommodate the non-Cream Cream Legbars sooner rather than later so that people that really like the more saturated color (and the crest and blue eggs) will have a home for their birds and won't lose interest.

 

[KPenley]

Good observations Dr. E. Has anyone started a group of Light Brown/Golden/Ginger/name to be determined or I just don't know it yet Legbars yet? There were a couple of officers and breeders really interested in doing this and eventually having us all under the Legbar breed heading.

 

[Laingcroft]

I just have to get on a soap box here for a second. I believe a good deal of the confusion is the perception that gold and cream are somehow totally unrelated genes/alleles (true) that occupy the same space on the genes/chromosomes so you can only have one or the other (false). There are either GOLD BASED birds or SILVER BASED birds. CREAM is a GOLD BASED bird with a MODIFIER GENE for inhibiting the expression of the gold. So GOLD IS NOT BAD and you can't get to cream without it.

The permitted chestnut on the shoulders is not the same as the BASE GOLD but a different gene altogether known as autosomal red. Different gene/allele and different space on the gene/chromosome. You can have both CREAM and autosomal red and be correct --- unless we change the SOP to eliminate permitted chestnut.


ETA -- don't remember correct scientific terms for the "genes" vs. "alleles" etc. sorry.

 

[dretd]

I just have to get on a soap box here for a second. I believe a good deal of the confusion is the perception that gold and cream are somehow totally unrelated genes/alleles (true) that occupy the same space on the genes/chromosomes so you can only have one or the other (false). There are either GOLD BASED birds or SILVER BASED birds. CREAM is a GOLD BASED bird with a MODIFIER GENE for inhibiting the expression of the gold. So GOLD IS NOT BAD and you can't get to cream without it.

The permitted chestnut on the shoulders is not the same as the BASE GOLD but a different gene altogether known as autosomal red. Different gene/allele and different space on the gene/chromosome. You can have both CREAM and autosomal red and be correct --- unless we change the SOP to eliminate permitted chestnut.


ETA -- don't remember correct scientific terms for the "genes" vs. "alleles" etc. sorry.

I am afraid I did not express myself very well. my thoughts are based on concern that some people think their views are being squelched by others--from PMs I've received, form some posters on BYC or the FB page and from comments from Curtis at a Board Meeting about some people wondering why the CL Club gets to be the one who decide what a 'real' Cream Legbar looks like. I think it really comes down to a marketing problem and I afear that down the road the CL Club could be viewed as some people view the Ameraucana Club. This group is filled with some really wonderful people who are really kind and supportive--something I would like to see continue.

My point is that some people are buying Cream Legbars thinking that a proper Cream Legbar is Gold in color because they have seen pictures on the original importer's website representing a Gold bird. Its a matter of perspective and who's perspective best represents the Cream Legbar: for me Cream Legbar is an indication of the genetics of the bird since it was originated by a geneticist; for some, Cream Legbar is an description of the color Cream and can range from milk to straw; for some Cream Legbar is simply a name to describe a pretty autosexing bird with a crest that lays blue eggs that may come in a deep gold to a silvery white color as represented on the importer's website. I was pointing out that when there are different viewpoints there can be conflict and someone will lose out unless a compromise can be achieved==such as having a second SOP that can accommodate the gold birds.

 

[KPenley]

@Tru, the SOP committee will not be eliminating the chestnut references
According to Henk, ig is an allele. hth http://kippenjungle.nl/basisEN.htm