de-worming chickens with goat safeguard(fenbendazole)

[chooniecat]

I recently took a chicken to vet(big $ for me,big $ to call to ask this ?) I am getting ready to deworm my flock and was given ivermectin injectable(was told can be used orally, I know how to do that) my ? IS, and I saw dosages before but don't know where i saw if before,(ramble ramble) how do I apply the safeguard and at what dosage for chickens?? oral/topical????? this is a big shot vet(IMO) as he treats the exotics,etc at the columbus zoo(OHIO)and I trust him just don't want to take forever with a call/? to him.

 

[dawg53]

Quote:
Just abit of advice. Pumpkin seeds are a preventative, not a treatment...especially for an infestation.

 

[BlacksheepCardigans]

Ivomec INJECTABLE cannot be mixed with water. Ivermectin POUR-ON can, but I have never seen a good published (backed by research) dose.

Safeguard (not ivermectin) can be mixed with water.

I know that's what the prior poster meant, but since the two brand names were getting mixed up I wanted to make it clear.

The -zoles (fenbendazole, albendazole - marketed as Panacur, Safeguard, Valbazen, and a few other brands) are safe broad-spectrum dewormers that will kill everything but tapeworm and are poorly absorbed by the chicken. Since most of the medicine stays in the gut you can even eat the eggs if you don't mind getting a tiny trace of human-safe wormer in them (don't sell them, obviously).

The dosage of the -zoles varies depending on the active ingredient and the brand (goat, sheep, dog, etc.). Make sure you don't get mixed up between them. I think pretty much all of them are water-soluble, though.

The -ectins (ivermectin, selamectin, moxidectin, marketed as ivomec and zimectrin and Quest and several others) is a very broad everything-killer, effective against worms and mites in mammals and birds. The bad news is that the reason it has such a broad action is that it's absorbed readily into the plasma and tissues of the animal that touches it, including people. It'll get into your eggs, the meat, and so on, and will medicate you if you get it on your skin. Withdrawal periods are very important if you use them, and if you're worried about your own exposure use gloves. The -ectins have varying reports of effectiveness in chickens depending on how they're given (injectable, oral, etc.) and are not necessarily great at doing a good deworming. The published research shows that the medication in ivomec injectable, which is what most people buy at the feed store, isn't very good until you get up to an oral dose close to the toxic level of the medication. Works very, very well on mites, though.

Injectable ivomec is sitting in a glycol base. That means it won't mix well with water. If you're using it orally you need to either give it straight, if you've been given a dosage by your vet, or mix it with another glycol or glycerine or something thick like karo syrup that will hold it in suspension. If you're using it topically for mites, you can open the plumage and drip it on the bird and the glycol should spread it through the oil production under the feathers. Dripping it on the bird won't worm the bird, though.

 

[dawg53]

Quote:
Apple Cider Vinegar (ACV) is not known to help in worm management. Use 2 tablespoons per gallon of water. ACV is an acidifier which helps in calcium absorption and lower gut PH...to help with bacterial issues. It also helps prevent sour crop.

 

[BlacksheepCardigans]

Quote:
I've read just about all the worming threads. I lurked on the forum and read thousands of threads for two months before registering or posting for the first time. Some of the recommendations are based on good science, and others honestly seem to be guesses. I don't want to guess, and I don't want to hurt my animals or my family by doing the wrong thing.

Poultry research on wormers is extensive and easy to find. Every big ag school is working like the dickens to keep poultry performing at its top efficiency. The wonderful thing about that is you can look through the abstracts from Vet Parasitology and Parasitology Today and the Journal of Veterinary Pharmacology and all the others, and you can read Macrolytic Lactones in Antiparasitic Therapy (handily available on google books) and you can make sure your BYC recommended dose is supported by research. That's just the smart thing to do.

Eprinomectin (Eprinex) has a very short withdrawal time in cows because the way cows metabolize partitions it away from the milk. Even with a high dose it stays in the plasma and doesn't get to the milk. It's the only avermectin that cows manage to do this with. There's no research suggesting that chickens do the same partitioning (as far as I can tell there's no research on eprinomectin in chickens PERIOD), which means that we don't actually have any idea whether there's zero withdrawal time for eggs.

 

[BlacksheepCardigans]

There's a huge difference between using something off-label in a way that has decades of support behind it and using something that has never been researched in an animal. That's all I'm saying.

I just did a one-minute search and found five universities (MSU, Kentucky, U Hawaii, Vermont, and NH) all giving owners specific directions TO use fenbendazole in poultry and exactly how to dose it. It's been studied in poultry for at least thirty years. There's a huge body of research that lays out exactly what it metabolizes into in chickens, how long those metabolites stay, and (this is key) what the acceptable residue is for eggs and meat. The USDA, in other words, knows perfectly well that it's being used in poultry.

Heck, carbaryl (Sevin) isn't registered for use in poultry - even though its number-one use in the US is as a poultry miticide, it's used in all the commercial houses, and it's been studied since the 50s.

Ivermectin, moxidectin, flubendazole, levamisole, hygromycin, pyrantel, on and on and on - good research, established doses, history of study in chickens. Eprinomectin - nothing. Studied very well in cows, fantastic in cows because they partition it from the milk. No research in chickens.

Registering something for use in a commercial animal takes looooaaads of money, and for compounds that aren't either novel or expensive it's not worth it for the pharma companies to spend. Doesn't mean it hasn't been used or have veterinary support or Ag college support and extremely good data about efficacy and safety.

I very much doubt that Eprinex residue in eggs or meat is going to hurt an average human, because an average human could take the bottle of Eprinex and swallow a teaspoon and it's not going to hurt them. Would worm them really well, but wouldn't make them sick. So I am sure you can use it and give it to your chickens at doses ranging from too small to gigantically too large and nobody's going to die. However, that doesn't mean there actually is a recommended dosage supported by research, OR that there is no withdrawal time for chickens. The no-withdrawal-time data has ONLY been studied in cows, which metabolize things differently because they're not birds.

Saying "Eprinex should work - my dosage would be a guess, though" is completely fine and accurate. I'm just not sure it's a good idea to say to people on a message board who trust answers to be the right ones that 1) There's a known safe or effective dosage, or 2) There's no withdrawal time.

 

[chooniecat]

well-they ARE infested(thus the "unnatural" stuff now unfortunately) and I want to start doing the apple cider vinager as a preventative because that seems realistic to me .

 

[BlacksheepCardigans]

Quote:
That's eprinomectin, which is one of the pour-on -ectins, and I cannot find a safe published dose or recommendation for poultry.

The problem with any of the medications that are readily absorbed into the body, like the -ectins and piperazine (Wazine) is not the medication itself. It's the metabolites of the medication that are left in the body when the animal has broken down the original. Wormers are pretty universal, and the animal wormers are the same as human wormers. It's not all that bad to accidentally dose yourself with a tiny bit of it. What you want to watch out for is what you're eating after the bird has absorbed and broken down the original medication, and for how long. Some break down really fast and don't end up in the blood in much of a concentration, like pyrantel and the -zoles. Some take weeks and weeks to break down completely (Wazine), and some end up in high concentrations in the blood (the -ectins).

If all I had was eprinex and I knew I had a mite problem I'd probably dose a few drops and then NOT eat eggs or meat for at least two weeks. I'd rather use injectable ivermectin, though, as a similar drop, because I know that works and there's published research on it. I'd still not eat the eggs for a while.

 

[dawg53]

Quote:
I've read just about all the worming threads. I lurked on the forum and read thousands of threads for two months before registering or posting for the first time. Some of the recommendations are based on good science, and others honestly seem to be guesses. I don't want to guess, and I don't want to hurt my animals or my family by doing the wrong thing.

Poultry research on wormers is extensive and easy to find. Every big ag school is working like the dickens to keep poultry performing at its top efficiency. The wonderful thing about that is you can look through the abstracts from Vet Parasitology and Parasitology Today and the Journal of Veterinary Pharmacology and all the others, and you can read Macrolytic Lactones in Antiparasitic Therapy (handily available on google books) and you can make sure your BYC recommended dose is supported by research. That's just the smart thing to do.

Eprinomectin (Eprinex) has a very short withdrawal time in cows because the way cows metabolize partitions it away from the milk. Even with a high dose it stays in the plasma and doesn't get to the milk. It's the only avermectin that cows manage to do this with. There's no research suggesting that chickens do the same partitioning (as far as I can tell there's no research on eprinomectin in chickens PERIOD), which means that we don't actually have any idea whether there's zero withdrawal time for eggs.

This is trully where you are uninformed. The only approved wormer in this country for poultry is wazine. There arnt any authorized dosages for poultry using off label products. Show me one that's approved for poultry other than wazine in this country. You stated poultry research is extensive and ongoing....show us what product and what dosages other than wazine is approved for poultry so that we can legally use it. As stated before and if you had read through previous threads going back to 2007...you wouldve seen dosages for all the wormers as recommended by lifetime experienced chicken owners as I previously stated. I have personally used most, if not all wormers that I've given recommeded dosages as I've seen on this forum from experienced chicken owners. My chickens are alive and well rest assured. When you see worms in your chickens poop, and they will eventually if their feet touch dirt, let me know. I'll be glad to help you and recommend a wormer with dosages. The alternative is to let your chickens die a slow death of starvation. Also, people on here ask what to give their chickens when they have worms. Why dont you give your worming recommendations and dosing recommendations: These people want answers and treatments...help them!

 

[dawg53]

What do you reccomend now easiest way to treat roundworm? Thank you!

Use Valbazen liquid cattle/sheep wormer. Orally dose each bird 1/2cc. Repeat again in 10-14 days.