Developing My Own Breed Of Large Gamefowl For Free Range Survival (Junglefowl x Liege)

[cubalaya]

Can you explain the Hmong breeding techniques or refer me to a link or thread on this?

there is a video from jason love that covers it but basically they breed for certain styles

 

[Mossy Dell]

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So check this out. Above is N1 and one of the American hens. Both N1 and the American hens are on free range. I hatched out exactly one egg from the crossing of N1 and the blue egg laying hen in a small batch of pure Cracker eggs. Look at the chick; left chick that’s taller than the rest:
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I like the physique so much I’ve “commissioned” several more.

To me, this is your base! Beauty, form; not too big or small. A darker partridge hen might be better for lessening predator attacks. But personally I am not real fond of black so to me these are prettier.

 

[TexasBlues]

Nice looking birds. Too bad about the mareks

 

[Mossy Dell]

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Updated pics of Indo. I have a picture of him up in the 2023 Calendar contest. He's still got a lot of maturing to do and yet he already impresses me.

As to the Liege project, I've let Indo breed back to his Liege mother and aunt and I have 22 eggs from those pairing set in the incubator. Although he's still just a bull stag, they're fully mature hens at or near 2 years old. I'm hoping for several healthy chicks that will do well, where the initial crossing of Aseel to Liege only netted me 2 adult birds out of nearly 2 dozen chicks produced.

The large Cracker project is advancing more slowly. The Cracker x "Blueface" stag is doing well free range. I have several Cracker x Blueface chicks coming up from Hei Hei and the second Blueface hen, where the stag is of Number 1 and the blue-egg-laying "Blueface" hen. I do find it interesting, coincidence or not, that the hen that lays the blue eggs actually has a blue face and she had imparted that to the stag. Not a good pic of the stag, his feathers are blowing in the wind. But it shows the blueish tint his face has.

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I did lose one of the Cracker x American cross chicks to a snake this past week:

Here in SW VA, we have huge black ratsnakes. One got into my hoophouse and ate 11 chicks from under their mother one night last spring. I had the coop's welded wire covered with chicken wire except for a couple places 3-4' up. But these snakes are climbers! So I spent some time last week covering all the 2x4" wire. And for good measure, I framed more tightly around the door. They ARE bird snakes, evolved to notice nesting birds and brooding birds in particular.

 

[Mossy Dell]

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Indo still isn’t ready for his closeup yet with my better camera. He still has another week or two before his tail is fully filled out. These pics are current as of today. I am posting them to show how solid his build is. Because…

… I am learning a lesson I did not expect to learn. Its good to worm your chickens. Even if they’re supposed to be free-range, Mad Max super survival chickens. I have believed these last few years its better to let nature take its course with parasites and let the most parasite resistant chickens breed. I no longer lean that way as of this past month.

I recently lost a milk cow I didn’t worm. She wasted away even though she ate like a hog. She didn’t have Johne’s disease (which is a waisting disease of the guts cows can get). My other cows are fat as can be. But they’ve been wormed.

Once cool mornings hit here last few weeks several of Indo’s half-layer chicks died. Three of the 3/4 Liege chicks also died. I cut them open and saw no sign of Mareks. But they all had virtually no breast meat. Even though I special fed several of them by hand to make sure each got a good handful of feed a day on top of what they foraged. So I started inspecting the survivors and the story was the same. Emaciated breasts. Then I checked all of the free range chickens I could reach. All were the same, very scant breast tissue, except for the pure Crackers, Indo, and Indo’s half-Cracker daughters. And the daughters weren’t fantastic. Just better than the layers and the chicks. Then I checked the coop birds and even some of the coop birds with full feeders had somewhat emaciated breasts.

But not free range Indo. He’s as thick as a body builder. Indo is the only chicken I have that’s been heavily dewormed. I dewormed him about a year ago with Ivermectin just for the heck of trying it when he started struggling with the free range sickness his brothers and sisters all succumbed to except for the one sister. But I never thought about connecting his deworming with his subsequent thriving.

So a week ago I gave a dose of ivermectin to one of my American hens (the one that lays blue eggs) and my new American aseel cross pullet. They were fine actually, both in coops. But I wanted to see if I subjectively noticed a difference. Then two days ago my orange 3/4 Liege stag (Azog the Defiler) was at the point of an emaciated death (no breast meat, ruffled feathers, stumbling around) and I dosed him up.

The two American hens look exceptionally vibrant a week later. I weighed the new pullet before and after and she actually gained half an ounce. Azog is pepped up and already putting some tissue back on his breast. His feathers now look neat and not ruffled. His countenance overall seems healthy.

So I have now wormed most of my chickens with ivermectin as of last night and today. There are but a few left I have to catch. Over the next few weeks I’ll feel their breasts and keep track of how well they fill out.

All pics are as of today.

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Azog.

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One of the Americans I dewormed last week. Her comb has never been bigger. She was already of good build but now she’s more like a laying hen.

I only just wormed these today. They are Indo’s daughters and of all of my chickens they had the most plump breasts. They do forage far away from the farmyard.
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Indo x Cracker pullet 1.

View attachment 3299760View attachment 3299761Indo x Cracker pullet 2. Look at those wild eyes.

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Indo x Cracker pullet 3 (she’s tiny).

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Indo x Cracker pullet 4.

I just sent off this Indo x Cracker stag to live on a other free range farm.

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The half Cracker birds off of Indo are good, tough, birds. They’re not very big. Pullet 1 is the biggest. She’s about the size of a normal American game pullet. The rest are Cracker sized.

I have Indo birds in the hands of a few others. They’re reporting stags topping out at 6lb. About what Indo is. His stags end up looking a lot like him. Here is an example:
View attachment 3299779I am disappointed that the genetics are not producing Liege-sized roosters even when bred back to Liege. I am wondering if the large size of the Liege rooster comes from the father’s side. My brother has several 3/4 Liege birds bred by a Liege cock that might tell the tale.

If worming my chickens seems to dramatically increase the free range survival odds of the Indo crosses, I will make some more 3/4 Liege next year. If all of my birds with skinny breasts get plump, then I’ll know that parasites were having a major impact on my flock.

Am not sure you later address this, but what method did you use to worm everyone with Ivermectin?

 

[Mossy Dell]

Just a note on what i have experienced crossing grey and red fowl. Once I or anyone I know cross Grey's with kelso or hatch or any other red fowl the offspring always look like Greys no matter how many times you breed back to the red (out crossing the grey). If you don't want the grey look then I wouldn't have any on your property. It's next to impossible to get red color back. Whatever the geneticist say is fine, just what I personally experienced. Just thought I'd add that so you don't potentially lose alot of time

I've always read that a grey cock over a red hen is the issue because pullets will be pure for grey and the stags grey with red in wing butts. But a red cock over a grey hen gives you grey stags and red pullets that are pure for red. Is this not true?

 

[Mossy Dell]

Sorry if I've gotten any this wrong or missing anything, but would the Ivermectin treat anything else? I wonder if there were a strong case of worm, or maybe none at all? If as I read there were no or minimal risk of protein overload or blockage due to massive worm die off.

Ivermectin also treats scaly leg mites. Not sure about other, feather, mites.

 

[Mossy Dell]

Will have to try this, mine is getting worse, and now no one has Ivermectin 1% pour on, otherwise I'll have to figure out how to use the injectable.

I may have some coconut on hand though.

Gail Damerow, The Chicken Health Handbook: Injectable [1% solution] and drench forms [.8%] of Ivermectin can be given by mouth at rate of 0.25 cc for large breed chickens. Repeat in 10 days to two weeks.

I added the percentages. Not sure which matters. But get a small syringe, 3 cc/ml. Down near the bottom will be a .5 mark, and I guestimate what's exactly halfway to the end for .25.

Ivermectin has big safety margins for mammals, I know from dosing hundreds of sheep. I have heard chickens are more sensitive. I don't know. I first gave a smaller rooster a robust dose, and when he was fine the next day I dosed the others.

My small syringe slips easily into the corner of their mouths. Just pull down the lower beak a little.

 

[Mossy Dell]

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I took some pics of Indo today. It took about 300 pics to get a handful that were decent. He normally poses well but the breeze was strong today and my daughter kept him stirred up.

He looks like a cross I made years ago when I had a flock, in southern Ohio, like you are developing. I mated a spangled American gamecock to a buff Orpington hen and got a perfect pullet. By which I mean she was large but sleek, kind of like a very large game hen. Then I mated her to a black Sumatra.

These were big, strong peacombed fowl colored like yours. They mixed with other freerange fowl that were mixed Lacy roundhead American game and bantams. I expected lots of fighting, but in may case the males tried to get their own harem and avoided each other. I did keep their numbers reduced by annual harvesting of ones I didn't like.

The key to the viability of the flock, and to the survival of a guinea flock we also kept going for 10 years until we moved, seemed to be safe roosting. Most of the birds roosted in our hay barn 16' feet up. Although hens sitting out got killed sometimes, not being picked off every night seemed to preserve the flock. I guess an owl could have swept through at night but the fowl were roosting on trusses interrupted by chords, and the barriers might have concerned owls.

 

[Mossy Dell]

Unknown. th been molting this month with blood quills so I haven’t wanted to handle him. Here is a current pic. The big pullet on the left is the American x aseel cross I got a few months ago. She’s a bit over 4lb. The small mature Cracker hen in the middle is probably 28 oz or so. I’d guess he’s a solid 3lbs.
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That's your mating, right there: Lanky x Aseel cross. My hunch is the best weights for free rangers not heavily supplemented are 4 lb. cocks and 3 lb hens. Possibly a half pound larger for each.

They'd have the wings and strength to run, fly, evade and roost high. A 4.5 lb cock with sharp natural spurs could kill a hawk if motivated. The one I gave my daughter did, though he was straight game.

Your Crackers are great but seem slightly too small to me. Your homemade Aseel x Leitge look too large to be sustainable. The thing about Orientals is they are said to have evolved in a thick grass environment, which fostered great hearing, somehow greater intelligence, dense bones, big muscles, and less flying ability.

I like Orientals' pea combs and tameness a lot. But personally I'd be wary of more than 1/4 in a freerange situation, and 1/16 might be much better. They'd impart intelligence and hardiness. But above a small percentage I think they'd hurt survivability in a high varmint situation.