Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[sol2go]

Also...I looked up the Gold Legbars standard (available HERE on page 54) and both the neck hackles and saddles are described as "Pale Straw" for the Gold Legbars. I also looked up photos of the Old English Game Bantams and those Crele birds also have matching saddles and hackles although they are NOT a pale straw but more chestnut color.

HI!
the note for mismatched hackle/saddle feathers was proposed as an identifier for the alternative legbar SOP,
primarily because 1) we see alot of that and 2) it would differentiate the crele legbar from the cream, and maybe from all other crele or gold varieties.

Do you see a problem with straying from the normal language?

Of course, it will take some time to see if the mismatched saddle/hackle colors are a consistent element in the offspring...

 

[sol2go]

For another comparison, my darkest (meaning most melanized Cream boy, hatch mate to the other 2 Cream roos shown) at 19 weeks:

Hi, thanks for posting more pics and analysis.
With the darker barring, do you also see black in the saddle feathers?
@GaryDean26 had a comment about that one time, and I believe he said that was desirable? I hope he pops in to cover that element again for me.

 

[ChicKat]

Hi All,

catching up on my reading and some quick comments.

ROOSTERS
The visual differences that stand out for me are:
the cream (white) vs crele (gold) wing triangles - that's an easy tell for DQ at a show
cream - matching hackle and saddle feathers, with allowance for a range from white to buttery
crele - mismatched hackle and saddle feathers, with substantially darker saddle feathers
cream - minimal ginger/chestnut across back
crele - substantial ginger/chestnut across back

The discussion of barring and grey are less clear for me.
If the crele has heavy barring and lots of color, and the cream has grey barring and less color, that would be the maximum visual difference.
But if they both have heavy / dark barring on the chest I think the differences (think black and white photo) become less obvious. How to distinguish the females will be more difficult I think, especially with the introduction of the Gold Legbar.

I think the way the pullets and cockerels seem to change appearance as they mature makes it really interesting as a breeder. Maybe not so interesting if you are trying to judge a poultry show...I'm not sure it is accurate to use the 4-8 months period as a good breed standard, especially since I hear over and over again that 1) all birds change as they mature, 2) birds are shown at all ages, and 3) breeders watch how their birds age to project the future of their offspring. Again, I think time is what we need.

I recently attended the Ventura Poultry Show and spent some time peering at beautiful crele feather patterns. I have to admit, the crele with 3 colors on a feather is really pretty. It was usually a "white" with a hint of "gold/red" and black. Without all 3 colors, it looks more like the pattern on the hackle feathers of a silver or gold duckwing OEGB. It was also easy to notice the visual texture of the body feathers if it was uniform ie stippling, mossy, ?

By the way, I don't see the need to call Crele by the lengthy European Partridge reference, especially since the females are wildtype and not partridge.

Hope to keep up with all of the postings, "you" get a lot done!

Sol2go--

Yes,, I think these that you identified in the rooster will be significant.


ROOSTERS
The visual differences that stand out for me are:
the cream (white) vs crele (gold) wing triangles - that's an easy tell for DQ at a show
cream - matching hackle and saddle feathers, with allowance for a range from white to buttery
crele - mismatched hackle and saddle feathers, with substantially darker saddle feathers
cream - minimal ginger/chestnut across back
crele - substantial ginger/chestnut across back

It may be possible that the last pair about ginger or chestnut on the back - although permissible in the SOP - I think that our friends across the pond would declare a rooster with color - to be 'not a Cream Legbar'--

I wonder since the sun discoloration is really visible during molt--- I will try to catch more pictures of the variation - and possibly the sun in the UK is different, the CL in the USA will look different from the one in the UK. -- I'm thinking that to be a different variety, as as Sam Brush was so kind to point out to us -- it needs to be a significant difference, and in the UK they seem to be going for an all or nothing light appearance. But is that based on true genetics.? Let's go forward with the theory that it is, and that our USA coloration - isn't caused by envirionment.

The discussion of barring and grey are less clear for me.
If the crele has heavy barring and lots of color, and the cream has grey barring and less color, that would be the maximum visual difference.
But if they both have heavy / dark barring on the chest I think the differences (think black and white photo) become less obvious. How to distinguish the females will be more difficult I think, especially with the introduction of the Gold Legbar.

This is a tricky one. Different breeds have different barring - so the OEGB Crele barring won't apply to the our type of barring. I photoshopped some images of Crele Leghorns - the idea at the time was to be able to identify the range that Cream would cover....




top most image - artist Crele Leghorn, below that one and just above this writing an actual Crele Leghorn. The pattern is not unlike CL IMO - but very unlike the OEGB. I think that the Crele designation is correct. Hidden in the real chicken - but visible in the art - is the white wing triangle that you referenced.


A gold crele Legbar - with the gold wing triangle.

Again the pattern is different from the OEGB - (when I first saw them I didn't think that they were real Crele - because these two were what my mind's eye made of it.

In the hens - the silver is very gray - and the gold is very burnt-orange on the back and wings.

I think only a very very very few CL females in the USA are showing the gray. Perhaps because the gray belongs to the silver variety it is tremendously difficult to achieve in a gold-based female.... Hackles distinctly yellow versus looking white in the two different females.

The barring patterns however are virtually identical - and there isn't a lighter gray and darker gray---so I'm thinking that one isn't going to be a true qualifier for the different varieties. Part of our problem is that a lot of Legbar males have nearly white hackles and still maintain a warmer - richer color in the saddles..... They aren't really a match to gold or silver examples...they are almost like a split of them.

If I think of where we are.... I would say this is a light cream legbar example of color:

Foreground chicken - very light

versus

Regarding the foreground chicken - has darker - more cream coloration - I think it the UK and some other places it would be designated as 'gold' ---

Of course you recognize these are both the same cockerel - from dretd's earlier post.....and dretd said that this may be the coloration of crele:

foreground chicken as true Crele. The above chicken has a more gold wing triangle - but it doesn't match the gold wing-triangle (aka brown) of the gold Crele Legbar which is very dark. The earlier two match the wing triangle of the silver Crele Legbar.

so will a white wing triangle be another designation of a 'cream' - and a non-white be a designation of a crele (or a barred wing triangle)--- The Leghorns didn't dilute wing triangle for gold due to barring as some have thought would be the case. It will be very interesting to see if the gold Legbar when premiered will have the brown wing triangle...of the gold Crele Leghorn. It seems that the birds should look almost identical....

 

[ChicKat]

Also...I looked up the Gold Legbars standard (available HERE on page 54) and both the neck hackles and saddles are described as "Pale Straw" for the Gold Legbars. I also looked up photos of the Old English Game Bantams and those Crele birds also have matching saddles and hackles although they are NOT a pale straw but more chestnut color.

Glad that you accessed this.

Referring to the SOP for the silver Legbar in your link and comparing it to the cream - it appears that the only difference is in the description of the crest - as cream and gray (since the silver legbar has no crest) - and that the neck hackles are cream instead of silver. (ETA for females that is)

To be correct, I think the females in the USA need to look much more like the silver Leghorn image...and I think only Chicken Picken has shown that. I have seen it in a couple of mine, and in one of the ones I sold at auction:

She had the tiniest crest - and it was more gray and cream - and she did have a distinct salmon breast. She wasn't a good enough layer to go into my breeding program though.... The one that was dark gray has turned taupe - and I saw one over the weekend that I had given away that may be gray - as she grows out -- so the genetics are certainly there (here in the USA)-- but they are pretty rare...OR there are other factors influencing the coloration.

Thanks for this link.

I believe that the standard for the Crele should use the gold Legbar as the starting point. The crest, the blue eggs and -- the fact that the wing triangle won't be gold - as I would expect to see in a gold Legbar would certainly be 3-major differences from the Gold Legbar - should an SOP for them be needed in the USA.

 

[Pyxis]

Sorry if this is off-topic, but are we also discussing a possible standard for the white sports in here? I wasn't sure since the title just said "Alternative Legbars" but the discussion seems to be all about crele. I would say there would be no problem saying the whites are a different variety since they are very different from either the creams or the creles. They also breed true since the white is recessive. If this is the wrong place for this I apologize and would appreciate it if someone could point me in the right direction of the correct thread!

 

[ChicKat]

Yes - this is exactly the right place...
Thanks for posting your interest.

Do you think that there is enough 'critical mass' that have interest in working on an SOP for them - and then going forward to having the needed number of White-recessive CLs - to get enough for a qualifying meet? (in other words, please predict the future for me...LOL)

Since white recessive is definitely a different genetic make up - there would be no doubt that it would be a variety of Legbar. They have crests, lay blue eggs.... a question for you and others that raise them - are they truly autosexable at hatch? -- For multiple generations or do the 3rd generation chicks all look indistinguishable. If they are autosexing - then it will be very easy to write their color description wouldn't you say? White-white-and white.

What do you think about the amount of interest and the autosexability?

One of the reasons that Crele is going to get a lot of attention here is because it is going to be very difficult to parse out - to see if it is indeed a singular variety.
However please - jump in and give your views of how the SOP for white-recessives can be developed.

 

[GaryDean26]

HI!
the note for mismatched hackle/saddle feathers was proposed as an identifier for the alternative legbar SOP,
primarily because 1) we see alot of that and 2) it would differentiate the crele legbar from the cream, and maybe from all other crele or gold varieties.

Do you see a problem with straying from the normal language?

Of course, it will take some time to see if the mismatched saddle/hackle colors are a consistent element in the offspring...

I think that it might be hard to get Judges on board with mis-matched colors. Some already indicated that they are having a hard time wrapping their brain around a single combed breed with a crest because they only time they have seen that combination is on backyard mixes. I think that there may be a similar reaction to miss matched colors. They may look at it as something that indicates a mixed bird or a bird that doesn't have a finished look. This would be a good question for an APA judge. It may not be a problems at all, I just pointed it out because in the limited number of colors I have learned about the better the colors match the better the color is considered on a bird.

Yes this is one of those things that may take time to learn how our birds breed.

Hi, thanks for posting more pics and analysis.
With the darker barring, do you also see black in the saddle feathers?
@GaryDean26 had a comment about that one time, and I believe he said that was desirable? I hope he pops in to cover that element again for me.

Yes...the dark grey barring on the saddles is what the Cream Standard calls for.

 

[ChicKat]

my poor rooster is molting - it is kind of mean to put their 15 minutes of fame up when they are in molt - but it shows something I find pertinent and interesting:'


what is particularly interesting to me is his two-tone neck-hackles.

new feathers white-looking - old feathers light gold? cream? -- I kind of call this color cream - as in cream as a light yellow color.....JMO



when his molt is finished, he will be back to the more white-colored hackles -- I don't know if his saddles will be lighter or not. But the saddles are darker than the hackles.

In this case I look at the wings, and I clearly see the three colors

Before Dretd pointed out the wing triangle with the open wing focus on the secondaries--- I was always looking at the neck hackles to try to determine if the male was cream or not. -- But especially when they change as much as this molt shows - it really has a lot of dependence upon environment.... I think some 'white' or 'silver' show birds are kept out of the UV rays of the sun for this very reason - the effect on the plumage...considered a bad thing on a silver bird....Maybe the game rooster that won at the Texas State fair was showing the effects of sun more than autosomal red.

So for Crele, this would have the tell of three colors on the secondaries on the wing and darker saddles than hackles. The bird also has more chestnut than many like - but that is not something that is disallowed on the Cream Legbar SOP.

 

[ChicKat]

I think that it might be hard to get Judges on board with mis-matched colors. Some already indicated that they are having a hard time wrapping their brain around a single combed breed with a crest because they only time they have seen that combination is on backyard mixes. I think that there may be a similar reaction to miss matched colors. They may look at it as something that indicates a mixed bird or a bird that doesn't have a finished look. This would be a good question for an APA judge. It may not be a problems at all, I just pointed it out because in the limited number of colors I have learned about the better the colors match the better the color is considered on a bird.

Yes this is one of those things that may take time to learn how our birds breed.

Yes...the dark grey barring on the saddles is what the Cream Standard calls for.

This may be something that Sam Brush touched upon in the Texas Sate Fair 4H evaluations. I think the way he said it was when someone was saying should the saddles & hackles match- was to the effect; "When they wrote this standard - were they being realistic or were they dreaming"-- and I interpreted it to mean that the majority of saddles and hackles don't match. I think a lot depends upon the particular variety - of course all the solids must match -- but in a lot of the Legbar varieties - they are starkly varied from what I have seen.
Some random examples from internet:

Called a Cream Leghorn

Called brown Leghorn - Gold Duckwing.

Interesting thing in both these examples - do y'all see the dark saddle having a match (color wise) at the top of the neck below the comb

 

[Pyxis]

Autosexing I'm not sure on yet - first generation, as in out of regular creams, are autosexing. That's as far as I've gotten at this point. As far as I know there aren't too many people raising them yet because there were concerns as to whether the chicks were dying off because of inbreeding to get the color. Mine are doing really well so I think I'm free and clear of that problem. I think there will be interest in them once it's established (if it's established) that they stay autosexing because white is a much easier color to work with than either crele or cream, and it seems that the white gene may be linked to the gene for those beautiful really blue eggs. I haven't gotten eggs yet so I don't know for sure. I do know there was one other person with a breeding trio but they planned to dissolve it after they got in some other breeds so they may well have done that which is too bad. I think right now it's a pretty rare color because it's hard to get, being recessive, and I've actually seen people actively working AWAY from it because they don't like it randomly popping up in their cream flocks so they get rid of all the birds that carry it. So I think more work needs to be done with them for sure but I think there would be interest if we could get them established.