dosage for dimetridazole?

[Sydney Acres]

How high of a "megadose" of metronidazole are you using? High doses of metronidazole can have side effects. (How much does your turkey weigh, what dose of metronidazole are you using, and how often are you giving that dose?)

Is this veterinarian an avian specialist? If not, is there one available close by, or is there a university vet school within driving distance?

Has your turkey been definitively diagnosed with Blackhead, or is that just the most likely problem? Other than a physical exam, what tests have been run, and what were the results?

Is there anything else that is being done for him, such as concurrent treatment with baytril or zeniquin, probiotics, tube feeding, monitoring for concurrent yeast infections and treating that, something soothing to the intestines such as sucralfate suspension or therapeutic barium, etc.? Has he been given anything to decrease inflammation, such as meloxicam? Has he been dewormed with a broad spectrum dewormer to eliminate that concurrent stress? What about some of the more natural products, such as oregano oil added to his food or water? Is he staying hydrated?

Blackhead is a horrible disease, and some turkeys will die from it no matter what you do. But sometimes the thing that makes all the difference isn't the ONE best drug, it's the total picture, everything together that supports the body until the immune system can take control and fight this off. There are many studies done on debilitated calves in dairy situations, all being given the right drug for the infection that they have. Every time these drugs are compared, the one thing that makes the difference in every study where it's looked at is who is taking care of the calves when they're sick. Consistently, the best prognosis comes when the teenage daughter in the family takes care of the calves. She doesn't just give them their medicine and hope for the best. She looks after their total needs. She sees all the little details and responds to them. It's not just about finding the right medication, although that's important. It's about supporting the whole animal through the illness. If your vet can't help you with that, maybe a different vet can.

 

[tofupup]

Yes, I totally get it. I have been seeing this avian vet for the last 5 years. I stopped the metronidazole last night because it has been 2 weeks and he only gets worse. He's been on baytril 20 mg/kg plus sc fluids plus tube feeds with probiotics and milk thistle and living in my kitchen on a blanket for the past 2 weeks. I truly understand the concept of supportive care and avian vets vs. non-avian vets.

I just found a few pages from australian publications that support the use of Emtryl as opposed to metronidazole for tx of histomoniasis so he's getting that right now.

 

[tofupup]

Yes, I totally get it. I have been seeing this avian vet for the last 5 years. I stopped the metronidazole last night because it has been 2 weeks and he only gets worse. He's been on baytril 20 mg/kg plus sc fluids plus tube feeds with probiotics and milk thistle and living in my kitchen on a blanket for the past 2 weeks. I truly understand the concept of supportive care and avian vets vs. non-avian vets.

I just found a few pages from australian publications that support the use of Emtryl as opposed to metronidazole for tx of histomoniasis so he just got it.

 

[Sydney Acres]

Oh goodness, it sounds like you're doing so much for him. He's a very lucky tom to have someone who loves him so much. I've had a few birds inside on a comfortable bed myself.

You're already giving him milk thistle for his liver. Are you also giving him SAM-E.? I've had some really good responses to this product: http://www.denamarin.com/#dogs
It combines milk thistle and Sam-E into one tablet, manufactured by a company with an excellent reputation for accuracy in dosing and using bioactive products (which is a huge problem with unregulated nutritional supplements). The original Sam-E research on cats showed some amazing results with liver failure, regardless of the type of liver disease. The doses that were originally researched were using twice the currently-recommended Sam-E levels. When I use this product, I use twice the recommended dosage. So for a turkey that is more than 18 lbs, I would use the dose for large dogs, 35 lbs and above, once daily. I typically use it for 1-3 months, depending on how severe the liver problem, and how long it takes to get under control. You can order this online with next day shipping, if you're interested. Each box covers one month. I've had one bird with liver disease (not Blackhead) that was given less than a 5% chance of survival. Her vet put her on Baytril, Vitamin K, and some Chinese herbs specific for the liver (which I know almost nothing about, but trust my avian specialist). I added the Denamarin. She recovered quickly.

In addition to Denamarin for liver failure, treating for cecal worms might reduce some of the inflammation in the cecum (Levamisole, Albendazole Oxfendazole, Fenbendazole or Ivermectin).

I also found a reference for using Corid for treating Blackhead. I don't know how effective it is, as I've not seen this medication recommended for Blackhead from other sources: http://fluffybottomsfarm.blogspot.com/2012/07/blackhead-in-turkey.html
"Corid (amprolium), which is commonly used for prevention of coccidia can also be added to the drinking water to help treat and prevent blackhead. Some medicated turkey feeds already have powdered amprolium mixed in. It comes as Amprol 128 which is Amprolium 20% soluble powder. This should be able to be found OTC, and is approved for use in growing chickens, turkey and laying hens. There is no meat or egg withdrawal when used as directed. If you cannot find this product you may be able to get the liquid form (9.6% solution) and the dose is 2ml/gallon of water for 5 days. You may need to add some sugar to the water as it is unpalatable to some animals."

Some people promote cayenne pepper for preventing and treating Blackhead. I definitely wouldn't recommend using it instead of traditional medicine with a sick bird, but it might be beneficial to use in addition to western medicine.

One other thing, somewhat contraindicated, but it often helps. If an animal is about to die, sometimes using a short course of steroids can reduce the inflammation enough to allow them to pull through. Yes, steroids suppress the immune system, which can potentially allow any infection to accelerate, but that takes some time, many days to weeks. Yes, it is especially risky in birds, as infections can spiral out of control quicker than in mammals. But despite all that, if hope is almost lost, it's worth trying, because sometimes it works.

Good luck with your boy. Fingers crossed for you.

 

[tofupup]

Girlfriend, you are preaching to the choir, because I am already there with each and every single thing you listed.

May I present to you Exhibit A, featuring (clockwise from left): Denmarin, Valbazen, panacur, Baytril, and Dexamethazone. (Not pictured: Vit K injectible, feeding tube&syringes, Kaytee baby bird formula, lactated ringers solution, and cayenne.) Also not featured -- and not used in this case -- are Corid, Ivermectin, and Levamisole.

Btw, the cayenne resulted in an overheated, hyperventilating bird with explosive red diarrhea for about 12 hours. No one mentions that part.

 

[casportpony]

@tofupup , how is he today?

For me it was hard to appreciate just how serious blackhead could be until 2103 when I necropsied two that belonged to a neighbor and saw the type of damage it can do. Before those two that I necropsied, I lost four of my own, two in 2011 and 2 in 2012, and of those four, two were sent to UC Davis for necropsy. Necropsy listed blackhead, E.coli, and yeast, but I can't remember if any sensitivities were done. Both had been on Baytril, metronidazole, were treated once with fenbendazole, and they were tube fed, but they did not receive subcutaneous fluids.

Now I do things a little differently... I start by bringing them in getting them warm, then they get subcutaneous fluids (3 kg birds get about 200 ml). They also get a shot of Baytril and a oral drench containing metronidazole, amprolium, and sometimes I add Baycox. Once they start pooping, and when their crop clears, I tube Kaytee Exact.

Not sure how helpful this info is, but thought maybe I should share it.

 

[Sydney Acres]

Girlfriend, you are preaching to the choir, because I am already there with each and every single thing you listed.

May I present to you Exhibit A, featuring (clockwise from left): Denmarin, Valbazen, panacur, Baytril, and Dexamethazone. (Not pictured: Vit K injectible, feeding tube&syringes, Kaytee baby bird formula, lactated ringers solution, and cayenne.) Also not featured -- and not used in this case -- are Corid, Ivermectin, and Levamisole.

Btw, the cayenne resulted in an overheated, hyperventilating bird with explosive red diarrhea for about 12 hours. No one mentions that part.

Wow, you're on it!!!

Overheating and explosive red diarrhea -- yikes!! No, nobody mentions that. How much cayenne did it take to do that? It sounds like the same reaction as the guys who take those dining challenges to see who can eat the hottest foods. Too much really burns, through and through. In Louisiana, they have lots of hot pepper sauces with colorful names that describe this problem. Dave's Insanity Sauce isn't the worst of them. Anal Revenge is my favorite brand. It's only used one drop at a time, in a large pot of soup!! One of my friends in LA sent me some, over 10 years ago. Tiny bottle, only 1/4 used so far.

Have you checked for a yeast infection in his mouth, crop, or poop? Sometimes that can slow progress. If present, Nystatin works well.

This poor boy -- he's obviously fighting so hard to be holding on for more than 2 weeks. You're doing a great job with him. Hopefully he'll start to improve soon.

 

[Sydney Acres]

How is he doing today? Fingers crossed for you.

 

[tofupup]

Yes, I asked the vet to do gram stain of crop, choana and cloaca and no yeast found. The crop is not slow at all; if anything, the food is shooting through him TOO fast. We put barium in there and did an Xray because I had some obsession that he had a blockage and wanted to look for thickening of inestines, etc, and the barium shot through him in 1/2 hour, so it's the opposite of a blockage or stasis -- which is normally the problem with my chickens who have cancer.

Everything I tube-feed him flies out with lightening speed, which the vet said is expected from the disease. I asked for something that is the opposite of reglan and propulsid and she said no, we need to let it fly out of there because we are hoping it is shooting out the parasites too. (Her wording was much more rational and eloquent, but you get the gist.)

And he is more or less the same today since I swiched to dimetrazole. There are moments of "holy ****, are you dying??" and moments of where he is bright and engaged. Some moments he is panting; other moments he is looking around and pecking at snacks.

I know there is often a flickering of the flame before it extinguishes, so I am aware that even if he has a great day, it might be that tricky thing that death does, where it gives you false hope right before they die.

 

[tofupup]

yes, that is my regimen. He is going through bags of LRS and jars of Kaytee like there is no tomorrow because the digestion is so fast. I kind of think there might be a concurrent problem because I feel a thickening of his crop wall, but the standing DV didn't really show anything weird to the eye and how is it possible that he only gets worse. When I started the treatment he was almost normal, but now it's as if my giving him the medicine has only fueled the disease, not hindered it. I know that's not possible, but that is how it feels.

. How long did for your birds to improve? Cuz it's sbeen over 2 weeks on this regimen and every day sucks just a little more than the one before.