dosage for dimetridazole?

[tofupup]

Hi there,

I have been using metrodiazanole on a turkey who was diagnosed w/ blackhead. He's been on it for the last 2 weeks and is not improving. I got ahold of some dimetridazole, but I cannot find out the dosage (in mg/kg) for turkeys since it is pretty much banned in poultry. Can anyone advise? My vet won't give me the dosage since she doesn't want to get in trouble and I don't think she could find it anyway since it's not listed in any formularies, except for budgies and pigeons. Would you just extrapolate the dosage for turkeys from what budgies and pigeons would take?


Thank you for any help.

 

[casportpony]

Quote: I actually don't know what the dimetridazole amount is because I use metronidazole, and from what I know about it, it's not as safe as the metronizazole, and since these powders are made overseas, getting the correct dose could be tricky. One of my books says that the dose is 20-50 mg/kg per day. I think the OP has Medpet 40%, which means that one gram of powder should have 400 mg dimetridazole, but unless you have a gram scale, it's just a wild guess as to how much one gram is. If the container came with a scoop, then one might be able to get a more accurate dose?

FWIW, one teaspoon of most powders will weigh 2.7 to 3.3 grams.

 

[Sydney Acres]

I cannot find any references for dimetridazole in my usual formularies. It is a banned substance in both the US and Canada, and many other places. However, I did find a document online from Australia, an 87 page PDF detailing the data considered for banning it decades ago. http://apvma.gov.au/sites/default/files/publication/15036-dimetridazole-final-report.pdf
In this document is a table showing how the product was used, table 3 on page 41. I tried to copy and paste the table here, but it didn't work very well. It looks like it was a medication that was put in the feed, at a feed mill, although there are also some water dosages. You can probably do the math and bring it down to an average daily dose based on how much an average turkey should eat. There is a six-fold difference between the minimum recommended for prevention, and the maximum recommend for treatment. You would want to stay in the upper 1/3 of the range between those minimum and maximums for effective treatment.

Other sources:

Here is what I found on a website from China that exports the drug as a powder (which is probably counterfeit, and hopefully only contains chalk instead of poison). I would not recommend this as a reference, except that it is the only reference stating that it should not be used for more than 10 days:
Notice:
poultry ues,not successive for 10 days.
Dosage and usage:
feed premix for pig,1000-2500g/1000kg feed.for chicken,400-2500g/1000kg feed


Here is another source from an article in a chemistry journal called Analyst in 1975, talking about analyzing for the drug:
Dimetridazole (1,2-dimethy1-5-nitroimidazole) is a feed additive used for the control of blackhead in turkeys and for the treatment of haemorrhagic dysentery in pigs. The usual
content in feedstuffs is 125-150 mg kg-l.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...pre-mixes_by_high-speed_liquid_chromatography



Here is a reference to individual chicken hens being given the medication for research to determine what dose would still produce a residue in the eggs. I'm not sure if this is a therapeutic dose or not, as the purpose of the research was to see how low the dosage could be and still produce eggs that contained the drug. But I don't get the impression that the high dosage killed the birds, so at least it's a place to start. Typically, turkeys and chickens are treated with the same drug dosages.
Residues of dimetridazole in eggs after treatment of laying hens.

Posyniak A1, Semeniuk S, Zmudzki J, Niedzielska J, Biernacki B.
Author information


Abstract

Laying hens were dosed orally with dimetridazole (DMZ) (50 and 250 mg/kg) for 3 days or intramuscularly (50 mg/kg), also for 3 days, and the residues were determined by liquid chromatography in albumen and yolk. The sensitivity of the whole procedure was 2 ng/g. The drug was excreted preferentially into the yolk (about 57% of the total) and the elimination period lasted for 4-6 days after treatment.

 

[Sydney Acres]

How high of a "megadose" of metronidazole are you using? High doses of metronidazole can have side effects. (How much does your turkey weigh, what dose of metronidazole are you using, and how often are you giving that dose?)

Is this veterinarian an avian specialist? If not, is there one available close by, or is there a university vet school within driving distance?

Has your turkey been definitively diagnosed with Blackhead, or is that just the most likely problem? Other than a physical exam, what tests have been run, and what were the results?

Is there anything else that is being done for him, such as concurrent treatment with baytril or zeniquin, probiotics, tube feeding, monitoring for concurrent yeast infections and treating that, something soothing to the intestines such as sucralfate suspension or therapeutic barium, etc.? Has he been given anything to decrease inflammation, such as meloxicam? Has he been dewormed with a broad spectrum dewormer to eliminate that concurrent stress? What about some of the more natural products, such as oregano oil added to his food or water? Is he staying hydrated?

Blackhead is a horrible disease, and some turkeys will die from it no matter what you do. But sometimes the thing that makes all the difference isn't the ONE best drug, it's the total picture, everything together that supports the body until the immune system can take control and fight this off. There are many studies done on debilitated calves in dairy situations, all being given the right drug for the infection that they have. Every time these drugs are compared, the one thing that makes the difference in every study where it's looked at is who is taking care of the calves when they're sick. Consistently, the best prognosis comes when the teenage daughter in the family takes care of the calves. She doesn't just give them their medicine and hope for the best. She looks after their total needs. She sees all the little details and responds to them. It's not just about finding the right medication, although that's important. It's about supporting the whole animal through the illness. If your vet can't help you with that, maybe a different vet can.

 

[Sydney Acres]

Oh goodness, it sounds like you're doing so much for him. He's a very lucky tom to have someone who loves him so much. I've had a few birds inside on a comfortable bed myself.

You're already giving him milk thistle for his liver. Are you also giving him SAM-E.? I've had some really good responses to this product: http://www.denamarin.com/#dogs
It combines milk thistle and Sam-E into one tablet, manufactured by a company with an excellent reputation for accuracy in dosing and using bioactive products (which is a huge problem with unregulated nutritional supplements). The original Sam-E research on cats showed some amazing results with liver failure, regardless of the type of liver disease. The doses that were originally researched were using twice the currently-recommended Sam-E levels. When I use this product, I use twice the recommended dosage. So for a turkey that is more than 18 lbs, I would use the dose for large dogs, 35 lbs and above, once daily. I typically use it for 1-3 months, depending on how severe the liver problem, and how long it takes to get under control. You can order this online with next day shipping, if you're interested. Each box covers one month. I've had one bird with liver disease (not Blackhead) that was given less than a 5% chance of survival. Her vet put her on Baytril, Vitamin K, and some Chinese herbs specific for the liver (which I know almost nothing about, but trust my avian specialist). I added the Denamarin. She recovered quickly.

In addition to Denamarin for liver failure, treating for cecal worms might reduce some of the inflammation in the cecum (Levamisole, Albendazole Oxfendazole, Fenbendazole or Ivermectin).

I also found a reference for using Corid for treating Blackhead. I don't know how effective it is, as I've not seen this medication recommended for Blackhead from other sources: http://fluffybottomsfarm.blogspot.com/2012/07/blackhead-in-turkey.html
"Corid (amprolium), which is commonly used for prevention of coccidia can also be added to the drinking water to help treat and prevent blackhead. Some medicated turkey feeds already have powdered amprolium mixed in. It comes as Amprol 128 which is Amprolium 20% soluble powder. This should be able to be found OTC, and is approved for use in growing chickens, turkey and laying hens. There is no meat or egg withdrawal when used as directed. If you cannot find this product you may be able to get the liquid form (9.6% solution) and the dose is 2ml/gallon of water for 5 days. You may need to add some sugar to the water as it is unpalatable to some animals."

Some people promote cayenne pepper for preventing and treating Blackhead. I definitely wouldn't recommend using it instead of traditional medicine with a sick bird, but it might be beneficial to use in addition to western medicine.

One other thing, somewhat contraindicated, but it often helps. If an animal is about to die, sometimes using a short course of steroids can reduce the inflammation enough to allow them to pull through. Yes, steroids suppress the immune system, which can potentially allow any infection to accelerate, but that takes some time, many days to weeks. Yes, it is especially risky in birds, as infections can spiral out of control quicker than in mammals. But despite all that, if hope is almost lost, it's worth trying, because sometimes it works.

Good luck with your boy. Fingers crossed for you.

 

[Sydney Acres]

I am so inspired when I read about your efforts to save him. You clearly love him dearly. Don't become discouraged. Sometimes the flame flickers before it extinguishes, and sometimes the flame flickers before the fire roars into a huge blaze. If he's not suffering terribly, then as long as there's life -- there's hope

With prolonged tube feeding, sometimes the lack of fiber can be a problem. The gut needs fiber to slow things down and digest properly. Also, sometimes animals will eat their natural food before they will eat the commercial food that we make for them. Have you tried feeding him grass? Depending on where you live there may not be any in your yard this time of year, and old grass may not taste good or have much nutritional value, but you can buy sprouted organic wheatgrass in most health food stores, and most large markets with organic produce. People add it to their smoothies. If he won't graze it directly, you can puree it very finely, strain it with a cheesecloth, or several layers of gauze, so that it will go through the tube feeding eyelets, and give it to him with your tube feeding formula. That type of fiber can sometimes help the digestive process. Other things that might help would be sweet potatoes or pumpkin or winter squash. If he won't take those in small chunks (cooked), then you can add some canned pumpkin (not the pre-made pumpkin pie filling, but the pure canned pumpkin) to his tube feeding mix. It's pre-strained, so no worries about it plugging up the tube. About 1 tbsp twice daily should be enough for the canned pumpkin, or more if he will eat the chunks. But any kind of new grass would be my preference. My free range girls spend much of their day grazing. Large amounts of grass in the diet is how their gut is set up to function. The tube feeding formula is great for calories and water, but there's just not enough fiber in it for long term use.

Does he like bananas? Most chickens do, and most turkeys don't. But bananas puree easily, and too many can cause constipation in people. A little bit pureed into his tube feeding formula might help slow things down a bit. Maybe a teaspoon or two twice daily -- you don't want to add too much sugar to his diet, which could feed any yeast that might show up.

Oh, I almost forgot about the Oxbow company. They cater mostly to small herbivore pets like rabbits, guinea pigs, tortoises, etc, but they do make a critical care formula that is based on timothy hay meal. That might/should have enough fiber in it to help stabilize his gut motility. It's meant to be syringe fed, so it mixes up into a slurry. I don't know if it can be tube fed or not, but you should be able to if you run it through a spice grinder for a while to powderize it, then strain it carefully. Your vet will need to be sure that there's not an unfavorable vitamin/mineral mixture in it that would be unfriendly to a compromised liver. Your vet will have to order it, or prescribe it for direct purchase. http://www.oxbowanimalhealth.com/products/type/detail?object=1608

I just saw this product the other day: https://smile.amazon.com/Wild-Baker...qid=1486680629&sr=8-3&keywords=cricket+flower It's something from their natural diet that could be added to the tube feeding formula. You do have to be careful about protein levels and protein sources in pets with liver disease, so ask your vet if this is ok. I would think that if you added this AND the grass, the high protein of the crickets would balance out the low protein of the grass, so probably a win:win. If you vet doesn't know, she can probably call one of the big prescription diet manufactures, like Hill's Prescription Diet, ask to speak to one of their consulting vets about L/D (their prescription liver diet for dogs), pick their brain about the characteristics of L/D, then ask them to help her decide if crickets plus grass added to tube feeding formula is a plus or a minus. They get so many routine questions, I'm sure that one of the veterinary consultants would enjoy something a little different and challenging.

Will he eat mealworms, or any of the other live wigglies that you could get at a reptile supply retailer (if you live near a large city with a store available)? Even dried meal worms might help a bit with fiber, although not nearly as interesting or tasty, according to my ancient old rooster.

Also, Lafeber is a company that makes tube feeding formulas for many different exotic animals, and has wonderful nutritionists on staff. Their formulas are expensive compared to Kaytee, so they aren't always practical to use for large birds like turkeys, especially if lots of birds are affected during an outbreak. But their nutritionists might be willing to talk to your vet about tube feeding formulas that might be beneficial for birds with liver and cecal disease, ingredients that you can add to help the digestive process, that type of thing. Lafeber started out as an avian nutrition company before it branched out into other species, so they really do have a lot of expertise. If cost is not a concern, then one of their tube feeding formulas may have a slight advantage over the Kaytee formula, or possibly not. You or your vet would need to compare the options.
https://lafeber.com/
https://lafeber.com/vet/

Also, there is a prescription diet for birds with liver disease, made by the Roudybush company. Your veterinarian would need to order it, or possibly prescribe it for direct purchase from the company if they have it set up that way. It is intended for parrots, macaws, etc, but may work well for a turkey with Blackhead on a short or long term basis. I had a pet chicken with kidney disease years ago, and fed her their kidney prescription diet plus specific table foods. She lived 6 years longer than expected!! Your vet, or possibly you, can probably call and talk to Tom Roudybush, the owner of the company, about your tom's specific nutritional needs. If I remember correctly, Tom Roudybush started out in poultry nutrition before starting his company, so he has tremendous expertise in these types of issues. It's been 20 years since I talked to him about Sydney (pet broiler chicken with heart failure and kidney disease), but he was a really nice guy when I had a million questions. http://www.roudybush.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=orders.group&group=careline

I'm really hoping things turn around for you. Let me know if there's anything I can do to help.
--April

 

[Sydney Acres]

hmmm. I saw the oxbow critical care formula on the shelf at my vet's office the other week and asked her about it and she said no, not for birds. No way is he going to be alive long enough for any mail-order items to get here. I am just going to PM you. or DM you, or whatever the appropriate term is.

As a single diet I would agree, it's not appropriate for turkeys. But as a portion of the total diet, the portion that adds in grass (tube feeding version) it could be beneficial.

 

[Sydney Acres]

Would grass hay pellets soaked in water work?

Possibly. It depends on their quality. Lots of the grass hay pellets are too high in ground up stems, and are meant to be fed to chewing animals with either a rumen digestive design (horse and rabbits), or ruminants that have extensive enzymatic digestion and chew their cuds (sheep, goats, cattle, etc). With poultry that don't chew, and have minimal digestive enzymes between the crop and gizzard, the firm stems in some of the pellets can cause obstructions. Many of those need to be fermented to be fed safely to poultry, which softens and partially digests the stemy material. On the other hand, the quality pellets that are made of soft grass without excess stems would work well when soaked. They would have to be powderized, and then mixed with water, to be put through a feeding tube.

 

[R2elk]

Hi there,

I have been using metrodiazanole on a turkey who was diagnosed w/ blackhead. He's been on it for the last 2 weeks and is not improving. I got ahold of some dimetridazole, but I cannot find out the dosage (in mg/kg) for turkeys since it is pretty much banned in poultry. Can anyone advise? My vet won't give me the dosage since she doesn't want to get in trouble and I don't think she could find it anyway since it's not listed in any formularies, except for budgies and pigeons. Would you just extrapolate the dosage for turkeys from what budgies and pigeons would take?


Thank you for any help.

Either look through some of the threads on blackhead in turkeys or PM @casportpony

She has posted the proper dosage multiple times.

 

[casportpony]

This is the formulary I read:
http://avianmedicine.net/content/uploads/2013/03/09_therapeutic_agents.pdf